CS Mott: A Giant in Automotive History Part 1

0:05 Hello, this is Arthur Bush. You're listening to Radio Free Flint. My podcast guest today is author Edward Renaghan. Mr. Renahan has written the book for the life of Charles Stuart Mott, an industrialist and philanthropist. Mr. Mott also is known as Mr. Flint. Music that's brought to you today by Colin Ort, called the Flint River Blues. We'll also play it on the outro. Hope you enjoy our podcast, Charles Stuart Mott. Alright, this is Radio Free Flint, Arthur Bush, along with Ed Renahan, and this episode is epic.

0:47 Welcome, Ed. Thank you. Happy to be here with you, Arthur. First of all, tell us your background as an author. I'm uh just a writer of nonfiction with a focus on history. I've done a number of books uh ranging from the Civil War era uh up until uh the 1960s. My background with respect to the Mott biography, my strongest background is that uh I've written some financial history, some financial biographies, most notably a uh Dark Genius of Wall Street, which is a biography of Robert Barron, a Gilded Age Robert Barron, industrialist Jay Gould.

1:28 And I think that's uh the book that set me up best intellectually, uh vision-wise for the Mott biography. You're not Ed Renaghan biographer for hire. No, I mean I I do this professionally. It's, you know, on a royalty advanced basis. In this case, as I understand it from listening to a previous interview of yours, the Mott family actually commissioned this biography. Yeah, well, not the Mott family so much as the Ruth Mott Foundation. It was an interesting uh sort of dance. They came to me and asked if I'd be interested in writing a full biography of Charles Stuart Mott.

2:12 I had uh several issues that needed to be resolved. First of all, although I, like everybody else, had heard of the Charles Stuart Mott Foundation, I have to admit I didn't have a firm idea who Charles Stuart Mott was, and I had to do a little digging right there. But then I saw that it was a very remarkable life. The next question for me was what the what resources were available uh in the way of primary source material. It turned out that there was a wealth of primary source material, two key sources being private uh collection at Applewood, Charles Stuart Mott's old mansion, and then the collection in the library of the Charles Stuart Mott Foundation, uh, which combined formed a real gold mine of original primary source material previously untapped.

3:06 Now, that being said, I wanted to make sure on the front end before I agreed to the project that they weren't looking for some sort of uh whitewash hagiography because I wasn't interested in writing that, and uh I sort of have to defend my uh reputation as a biographer, uh, independent biographer. Marianne Mott, Charles Stewart's Mott's youngest daughter, assured me that was exactly what they wanted. They wanted an independent, no-holds barred, tell the whole story biography. They didn't want a hagiography.

3:46 Now let me stop you right there. Why do you think there are so few books written about Mott in his life, given his enormous impact on America? He was sort of as great and dynamic as he was, uh, I think he was sort of overshadowed by his colleagues, by Arthur Sloan, by uh Pierre DuPont, uh Louis Chevrolet, David Buick, Durant. Um I think these more prominent names just sort of overtook and put Mott from a publicity point of view, let's say, in the shade a bit, although he was certainly wasn't in the shade in the story of General Motors, generally expanse and trajectory and breadth of his life.

4:39 You know, this is a guy who you know he was 97 years old when he died. He was born ten years after the Lincoln assassination. His last car that he drove was a Corvair. He died two years before the founding of Microsoft. Breadth of his life, in many ways, encapsulates the second century of the United States. You're a fellow that's wrote some tremendous books about subjects that are fascinating to history nuts. But why write a book about C. S. Mott and not Michael Moore? You're a guy can write about anybody that he wants.

5:20 Yeah, yeah. Well, I I I personally uh no offense to anybody living. Uh I find C. S. Mott a lot more interesting than I do Michael Moore. Both his great positives and his uh occasional conflicts, vicissitudes. Mott very much represents his time, his opinions, his points of view, and his reactions to uh contemporary events. One of the things you've wrote as a history book, it does not uh contextualize necessarily the other arguments that are floating around out there in contrast to his own points of view.

6:00 You talk about Stuart Mott in terms of his accomplishments and so forth. I'd like to know who Stuart Mott was as a person. He seemed like a bit of a compulsive guy. He seemed obsessed with certain things like picking up pennies, lighting his house. I interviewed one of the uh autopioneers uh children, grandchildren, I guess. And that guy who actually knew Mott called him parsimonious, which I thought was quite a generous term. Can you comment on any of this? Yeah. Well, he had a great, he had a very interesting combination uh of traits.

6:41 He uh was a real spendthrift. He didn't want to spend a dime more than he had to, but at the same time, he really enjoyed nice things. Uh and at the same time, he was, as as we know with the Charles Stewart Mott Foundation, extremely generous. But even with the foundation grant making, he wanted to make sure that when when he granted$100,000 to some project that the grantee got$100,000 worth of benefit, he was very scrupulous about financial controls. And uh there's a great story, actually. When he was in his last illness and in the hospital in Flint, he could see out his hospital window to Applewood.

7:33 And he could see one night that the nannies the light was on in the nanny's room, what he knew to be the nanny's room, and he knew the nanny wasn't there at that time. So he called the house and had somebody go up and turn off the light. As kids, I mean, it was a standing joke about his thriftiness, because we witnessed him picking up pennies off the sidewalk in downtown Flint. Oh, yeah. You know, we would see this. He was sort of the common everyday guy's billionaire. He was, you know, sitting at the lunch counter at Kreske's after we got out of the YMCA after we'd been swimming all morning. I mean, and that became sort of a standing joke for us is that if somebody in our group was not being generous with their funds, we used to tell them they were being a tightwad, and that we associated with Mr.

8:24 Watt. Obviously, later in life, we learned that he wasn't as much a tightwad as we first thought. Right. A guy told me a great story. Oh, uh, when I was in Flint after the book published and us doing signings and talking, a lot of people came up to me with stories, first person stories, about their experiences with Mr. Mott, as they called him. This one fellow who was on the staff, who was on the mayor's staff, forgetting his name, I'm so sorry, uh, came up to me and said, I've got a story for you. He said, When I was a young man in the uh late 1960s, I was uh going away to college for the first time for my freshman year, and I took my bicycle to the express office to see if I could get my bicycle shipped to my college so that I'd have it there.

9:22 And he said I they measured it and you know all this, and then told me what it would cost to ship the bicycle. And I said, Well, I can't afford that, so I just won't won't ship it. And he said he turned around and uh Mott was behind him on the line. And Mott said to the guy behind the desk, he said, ship the kid's bike. What I learned from your book, he was a copious diary writer. There are excerpts from his diary that that apparently date back into the early 1900s. He wrote every day in his diary. He wrote with the assistance of a stenographer. I mean, he wanted to make sure all his words were right.

10:03 Oh yeah, yeah. He would dictate, you know, today's diary. Now you looked at these diaries. I don't know anybody else who has, but I'd love to spend a month looking at them. I mean, have they scrubbed them? I mean, there was some as it related to very personal matters of this. I didn't find that. I the one area that I thought it seemed as if things had been culled a bit, was with regard to his very brief and very unhappy third marriage to D. Fury. So that would be what we call divorce diary. Yeah, yeah. Uh that whole period, uh, and it was only a year or so, they weren't married that long.

10:45 That whole period, though, uh seemed rather light in the way of uh material. What do you think the purpose of him writing this diary was? Uh he wanted uh to he did it on a two-fold basis. He wanted to preserve a a record for himself of what he'd been doing and who he'd been seeing. He would post, he would have copies, carbon copies made of what he dictated, and he would send it to his family members, to his children, as they grew and moved away, so that it was his way of keeping them informed on the doings. Now he was a little more ahead of our time because, as I understand it, he was a bit of a health nut.

11:32 Oh, very much so. Very much so. He was lean and mean throughout his life, avid uh tennis player, horseman, didn't drink, didn't smoke. Well, he smoked a pipe, but he didn't smoke cigarettes. We we don't know where he bought his tobacco, do we? Yeah, he bought it at that uh shop that's still there on the main dragon flint, just down the block from the Mott Foundation. They called that Paul Paul's pipe shop. Yeah, yeah. That's where he would go. And now one of the lures of Paul Spagnola, who was the original owner, I guess, of this was a world champion smoke pipe smoker, whatever that was.

12:16 And periodically the journal would cover his extravaganzas around the world where he uh was in competitions quite sure. A guy told me that Mott used to walk down from his office at the Mott Foundation building and stop at the pipe shop and get his tobacco. Then he'd keep on going down to the Masonic Lodge and have lunch at that little cafe that they do in there. Was Mr. Mott a religious man? Yeah. I got the sense that his spirituality was sort of practical, um action-oriented Christianity, shall you shall we say?

12:59 He would go with the family to uh the uh church there, the Episcopal Church, uh of a Sunday, and the kids got sent to Sunday school, and he was on the vestry and you know all that kind of stuff. Uh I got the sense that he thought it was more uh uh more efficient to uh take action to uh improve the world rather than um simply pray about it. He did attend St. Paul, so that's what you're saying, right? Yeah, yeah. No, he was even on the vestry there, yeah. Do you know how long he had been part of that? Oh, I think th throughout his time in Flint. That church had a pastor that I forget his first name, but it was Pengalley.

13:43 And the reason I remember his last name is because that was a street I was raised on, Pengalley Road. Caught my attention because uh he was so socially conscious in the 20s and 30s. I think uh he was uh the pastor. As legend have it, there's a building downtown. I don't I think it's gone now. His building was called the Pengalley Building, and it played a significant role in the sit-down strikes. And the strikers uh held off held court inside of this building. That's where they rented space or whatever, he gave space to them. And that way they could avoid having to you know do battle with the National Guard and uh General Motors thugs that were trying to beat him up.

14:27 Right. Um also of interest to me was that Pengali would give sermons about what I would call more socially conscious social responsibility that most of the people who went to that church were quite wealthy. Their obligations to the poor. Nobles oblige. He had communists and socialists and all manner of collection of uh you know individuals that had different philosophies than the capitalist one. Struck me as odd was that here he is with the pillars of society written out places to these ragtags as they saw them. And Pengaly left his uh his work at the church, I believe it was after the uh sit-down strikes.

15:15 Do you know anything about him or why he left? The only reason I asked at it is he said he left to become a real estate developer to engage in quote unquote other activities. I I'm sorry I don't know anything about him. I do know that uh Mott, of course, along with uh Sloan and Kettering and uh all not just at GM, but all the prominent industrialists of the early 20th and late 19th century, had uh a real blind spot for uh the importance of unions and collective bargaining in general.

15:58 You know, they really hated hated the concept, and as you know, through the sit-down strike, it was only through the sit-down strike that uh which was an epic moment in the hist labor history of the United States, that uh GM was uh finally dragged kicking and screaming to the uh negotiating table with the in your review of Mr. Mott's diaries, did you note any of his opinions or thoughts about the the sit-down strike? He disliked this as an area where he was totally out of step with opinion and with history. His view was, and and it was the view of Sloan and Pierre DuPont and all of them, that the unions eventually, essentially, would only have an inflationary impact, forcing higher wages, which would f force the industrialists to increase prices, which in turn would have forced the laborers to need more money, and he saw it as sort of a vicious cycle, and he didn't like the idea of capital in general being under the thumb, shall we say, in his view of labor.

17:13 You know, he was a generous hombre, but he w you know it was sort of on his own terms. Well, let's come back to that in a few minutes. What did he have any hobbies? Like woodworking or you know, stuff like that? Well, uh, you know, as I mentioned, tennis and uh horsemanship, but also what he really liked to do was to tinker. I mean, he had a degree in mechanical engineering from the Stevens Institute in Hoboken, New Jersey. He liked the hands-on, you know, how are we going to improve the Buick this year? What's the design going to be? On the day of uh Pearl Harbor, the way he heard about Pearl Harbor was he had just gotten a new catalog and he was in the garage at Applewood with the radio on, tinkering under the hood and reading the manual, you know, seeing how everything was put together when he heard about the the raid on Pearl Harbor.

18:09 So, you know, that was a hobby. And he liked designing other things too. He had um all sorts of devices and approaches that he came up with to do things at Applewood. For example, the uh the tennis court at Applewood, which is no longer there, the tennis court was purposely designed to be to be positioned at a slight angle down to one corner of the tennis court so that when it rained, all the water would go down to this one end and would would go into uh storage for watering the farm, which used to be there, where uh is now the uh community college grounds.

18:52 Throughout the United States, lots of say uh water companies had mott ownership. He eventually just about everything that had Mott family ownership became foundation ownership. Uh his interest in water seemed to have started way back in the days when he came to Flint and when he began to run for mayor, I think he talked about water as one of his issues. Yeah, yeah. Positioning the community for further growth in many ways, including making sure viable water resources were available, ironically, given recent history, being able to enable further building out of the community.

19:37 As uh GM expanded in Flint, they needed more laborers, and the laborers needed places to live. And so there was built construction and there had to be water running, you know. And so the all of the infrastructure of Flint. And Mr. Mott owns the U.S. sugar company. Now, it it's the largest sugar company, I think, in the United States. If not the world. And it's also the largest polluter in Florida. And it's been a company that's been attributed to you know the killing off of the Everglades. And it's front, it's front and center because just today here in the Tampa Bay region, uh down in Sarasota, red tide showed up.

20:20 A lot of people associate red tide with U.S. sugar. So be that with that preface. Tell me why Mr. Mott. Oh, the other thing that U.S. sugar did is cause people like me to go to the dentist a lot to get my teeth fixed. But be that as it mate, why is Mr. Mott interested in U.S. sugar? He was interested in he liked as long-term investments, he liked goods that were never going to go out of style. He knew sugar, everybody's always going to want sugar. Same with water, all these water company investments that he made.

21:02 He liked those kinds of investments for the long term. Doubling back a bit to the pollution question with U.S. sugar, and you're quite right in everything you say there, bear in mind Mott himself was involved in personally involved in in the management and running of uh U.S. sugar and the ownership much before today's environmental sensibilities were in place, before people were thinking that way. You know, Mott died in 73, which I think was might have been the year or the year before the first ever Earth Day. Not the year maybe is the next one where we got the Clean Water Act passed.

21:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was before uh a sensibility that of what in industry in general was doing to the environment. Subsequent years, since Mott's death, you're right, U.S. sugar has not kept up with what they should have been doing. I would say in Mott's day, he didn't have a sense that he was doing anything wrong. No, he had a son, Stuart Mott, who I call the hippie philanthropist, who actually uh was an environmentalist because he was a very uh big curiosity for those in my generation and Flint because the Mott seemed to be so secretive about their lives.

22:31 This guy was we had a garden up on top of his, all I remember is his penthouse in New York City, and he's got this garden with like 130 different varieties of some kind of way out there plant. I'm sure it wasn't marijuana, but no, it wasn't he he was a guy that explored the environment and actually gave money to you know support causes in the day. I should add that uh subsequent, you know, the Charles Stuart Mott Foundation is today very active on environmental affairs, especially in the Great Lakes. And they've been active, you know, in dealing with the Flint water crisis, too.

23:13 I guess you know, when we look at history and what you call our sensibilities today, but the I call it the lens in which we measure everything. Uh we look at issues like race, we look at issues like environment, issues of corporate responsibility. Looking back at Mr. Mott. You know, the Mott Camp for Boys outside of Flint was the first uh such camp in Michigan to be interracial, to not be segregated. Yeah, and there's a fabulous story about uh his assistant, uh Frank Manley, uh, who actually was helping to put together some of these things. And I think it was Mr. Manley who said, you know, these kids need dental care.

23:57 There was a local dentist, I can't remember his name, maybe, maybe it was Mr. Turry, but they they uh Charles Mott explored that idea with with Mr. Manley, and they actually implemented it to provide as part of their camping experience a trip to the dentist. That's right, that's right. A couple of other things, uh you know, Mott and Race. Uh there have been hatchet jobs done on Mott with regard to race. In uh 1943, he was instrumental in the founding of the Urban League in Flint. In 1945, he funded the founding of the uh Flint Interracial Community Center.

24:41 Yeah, I talked to a wonderful woman in Detroit. She's a prominent black poet, Naomi Magic. Naomi Magic. And uh as a young Detroit school teacher in the 1960s, uh Charles Stuart Mott gave her a grant with the intention that she would put together the very first high school English anthology of literature that would include black writers, Paul Lawrence Dunbar, County Cullen, Lorraine Hansbury. That was and he gave her a ten thousand dollar grant to pull that off. One other quick story about Mott and Race.

25:24 I think it was 1961. There was a guy on death row in Louisiana, Angola Prison in Louisiana, and his name was uh oh Edgar Labat. And this guy had been on death row since 1950 for um uh a crime that was generally acknowledged among people who who were pro you know willing to acknowledge it, he hadn't committed the rape and murder of a a white woman, and for which he was convicted after a very short trial by an all-white jury in the American South.

26:04 And he had by 1961 exhausted all of his possibilities for appeal, and as a last-ditch attempt to uh save his own life, he went and he wrote letters to every prominent American that he could think of, any well-known name, any powerful person, and one of these was uh Charles Stuart Mott. I found a remarkable letter from Mott to Thurgood Marshall. They were acquainted. They had been seated next to each other at a dinner a month or two before Mott got this letter from Edgar Labat.

26:47 So they had a an acquaintance. This remarkable letter in which Mott says to uh, and uh Marshall was not yet on the Supreme Court, he was the chief counsel for the NAACP and their offices in New York. Uh Mott wrote to Marshall in closing Labat's letter, and uh I I'm paraphrasing here, it's in the book. He says, I know that the jail cells of the South are full of Edgar Labats. I hope and trust the NAACP is working uh to address not just this case uh but all of them. If there is something that I can do personally to help this man or any others, please let me know and I will.

27:36 You know, and I think that says a lot about Mott and race. Mr. Mott had an interesting family life. He was a unique guy for his times because people didn't s didn't trade out wives very often, and uh he had four of them. Yeah, but uh one of the reasons he had four of them is is that he lived so long. A couple of them died on him, you know. His first wife, Ethel, he was married to her. It was a true love match. They were married for more than 20 years, and he was devoted to her.

28:17 You know, she passed away. And then his second wife, uh Middy Butter Middy's Butterfield, the daughter of uh the Butterfield Theater Empressario, the Butterfield chain of theaters in Michigan. He was married to her for a couple of years, again a true love match, and she came down with a rare sickness that killed her. Then he had a very brief, unhappy marriage that I alluded to earlier, to D. Fury, which is the area in the papers, uh the primary source material that uh seems to have been called. Um, but uh evidently she's uh she's known in the family and around Flint as the gold digger.

29:02 It didn't last too long, it lasted only a year. Was she the one that fell out of the window and died mysteriously? No, no, sadly that was Ethel. That was the first first wife. Um one that he was madly in love with. Yeah, well, he was married and loved madly in love with the second one, too. First wife. She it's unclear, really, whether she fell out of the window or if she put herself out of the window because she had been suffering from depression for quite some time. I'm fairly familiar with Applewood as a mansion. I had a uh an office there while I was researching and writing the book.

29:44 I spent a lot of time in that house. Just from my observation, I don't know how you could fall out one of those windows. Was there a police investigation? Yeah, there was, but no one could tell really, you know, what was in someone's mind. And she died of internal injuries. She very well might not have died because, frankly, the the second-story windows at Applewood aren't that high up. It's not a skyscraper. So it's it's open for conjecture what happened there. But needless to say, whatever happened, Charles Stewart Mont was very broken up. Um, I know something else he'd be very broken up about if he knew that there was a lady murdered in the guest house.

30:26 Oh, that's right. Margaret Eby. Yeah. Yeah. That's not a part of the tour at Applewood, you know. Well, it was part of my tour in uh in the prosecutor's office because uh I I knew Miss Ms. Eby for many years as a as a provost at the University of Michigan Flint. Right. Right. Uh and uh so when I got elected in 1992, I wanted to to try and go backwards because we all we all wanted that murder case solved. And I'm forgetting, did it get solved? It did get solved, yes, it did indeed. Many years later, but uh we did eventually solve it, but we never forgot about that that murder.

31:09 But I always was uh I was always uh fascinated by this murder and and why nobody's taken it to a higher level of of film. Because it has all the elements. Uh murder at the mansion. This lady this lady. Maybe that's my next project. Maybe that's what I should do. There you go. But murder at the mansion involves this uh who had a very engaging social life. She lived in the guest house, some guy who was servicing the uh sprinkler system at the at the mansion there. He did have access to the place, and he may have had keys. So anyway, he murdered her along with uh an airline stewardess at the Romulus Hilton Hotel outside of Metro Airport in Detroit.

31:57 And uh she was uh flight attendant for Northwest Airlines, and the murders were nearly similar similar. Uh but but nonetheless, uh uh through this whole saga, which took me I can't remember exactly how many years, but it strikes me it might have been a decade in and out investigation. I put a lot of resources into it. I never heard from anybody from the Moths. We did issue some search warrants, but they didn't I don't think they were for Applewood. But the police had been in there and investigated that scene, and I just happened to hire the detectives who had actually initially uh responded to the scene.

32:38 I was just lucky but it but it was quite a story in it. So then after D Fury, Mott's next long-term marriage, the last one, uh, which was also a real love match with was with Ruth Rawling, and with whom he had uh three children. He'd had he'd had three children with Ethel, and he had three children with Ruth, one of whom still survives. Uh Mary uh Mary Ann Mott, the uh youngest child. Kind enough to write the introduction. Was she raised in uh in Applewood? No, she was raised in Applewood, yeah. Did she go away to school? Was she educated in the Flint schools?

33:19 I believe I believe her early years she was in some of the Flint schools and then went away to schools. Still very involved in Flint. She's on the Mott Foundation Board. She's uh the chair of the Ruth Mott Foundation board. She lives in uh Southern California and on a ranch in Montana and has a small uh apartment in Flint because that's how often she's in Flint. She has a place there still. Somebody described Mr. Mott's family as really quite unique in that he had children that were almost a generation apart. Yes.

33:59 Uh the character and uh and the quality of contact he had with these children was remarkably different. Uh can you comment on that at all? He had a good relationship with all of his children. He was evidently more involved, probably because he was a younger man at the time with the raising of the first three children. He was younger, more energetic. Uh the first three children were around the house more than the later three children who you know tended to go off to various schools. Also, with Ethel, his first wife, dealing with with mental health issues, it was incumbent on him to be more involved with his three children, the first magic three.

34:49 The second group of three children that he had with Ruth had a great relationship with all of them and was was involved, but uh he was also by that time deeply immersed and incredibly busy with the the foundation and uh also Ruth was around full-time uh due to mothering. For logistical reasons, it seems like he was more hands-on with the first group of children. All six of them were always devoted to him, and vice versa. Uh can you tell us anything about Harding Mott? Lived a life of what seemed to me to be similar to his father's.

35:29 Very similar to his father's. Charles Stuart Mott found uh stepped down from running the foundation. Of course, it was Harding Mott, who was already working in the foundation, who stepped up to run the foundation for several decades. Basically, you know, approached everything with the same methodical manner of thinking as his father did, but also with the same generosity and the same uh philosophy uh beneficence as the father. And he in, you know, in turn passed this on to his son-in-law, to Bill White. Bill now has passed it on to Ridgway.

36:10 You know, there's never been there have been four heads of the Charles Stuart Mott Foundation, and they've all been family. Stuart Mott, which I keep coming back to, it's been reported in national newspapers such as the New York Times that he had a bit of a stormy relationship with uh C.S. Mott. Were you able to learn anything more about that? It wasn't so much stormy as respectful disagreements. Um uh they got along fine, and they I think they were both too efficient and sensible to waste time debating over the dining room table about uh birth control or whatever it might have been.

36:54 Just for clarification, Stuart Mott was uh was one of the founders of uh Planned Parenthood and actually went around the country supporting that cause and donating money, as I understand. Exactly, yeah. You know, and of course, Stuart founded his own foundation. There's a Stuart Mott Foundation. There's a story behind that, too. Do you can you recount that for the audience? Uh I'm not sure what you're referring to. Well, it was reported in again, I think it's a New York Times who did a profile and an obituary on Stuart, uh Stuart Mott, that said that his charitable trust fund that he created uh was a part because his dad wouldn't support some of his causes.

37:38 Oh, yeah, no, that's that's true because uh of differences of opinion on what was a priority and what wasn't. But that's true, that's why he started it. But he's you know, he started it with money that came from uh the old man. Each of Charles Stuart Mott's children when they came of age were given, they each got a$30 million trust fund. That's real money. Yeah, yeah, even today. You know, they were free to do what they liked. Matter of fact, they all, the only one who hasn't started her own unique foundation is Mary Ann. But she's so up to her neck in the Ruth Mott Foundation.

38:22 She's she's done other uh charitable things with her own money, but she hasn't launched a foundation. But all the others have, you know, started their own foundations, doing this, that, and the other thing. Thank you for joining us. This is the conclusion of episode number one, part one, with Edward Renahan, the author of the story of the life of Charles Stuart Mott, Mr. Flint. Music that you're listening to is by Colton Ort. Mr. Ort uh provided this music uh for us to use a radio-free Flint. The song is the Flint River Blues. Thanks again for joining us. See you next week for part two.

39:08 The water was bad. She gathered all the research that she had. She really still study All your little children have been poison with left in the river water, Ace Locke and Time Water Ace, but the water no people are sick and died.

40:16 That just shows what the system will do. It'll poison your children and lie to you. You can tell them the facts. They'll still say they're right. They deny the truth. Well, it's in plain sight. Flail the river water. Taints like turpentine. All people are sick and dying.

41:08 So that concludes our episode with Edward Winterhand.