March 21, 2021

William S. Ballenger III

William S. Ballenger III of Flint, Michigan is a descendant of one of the founders of Buick, Chevrolet Motor Car Company, General Motors. Bill is a member of the family that philanthropically endowed the Flint area. Bill shares his family's history, accomplishments, and philanthropic activity. Along the way, Bill shares experiences about growing up in Flint and shares his memories of the late Charles Stewart Mott and family.

Bill Ballenger is a former State Senator, State Representative, the Michigan Racing Commissioner and the Director of The Michigan Department of Licensing and Regulation. He is also a former Professor at Central Michigan University and has been an adjunct professor at Michigan State University and the University of Michigan-Flint. For decades Bill published the newsletter Inside Politics, a must-read publication for those interested in Michigan government. Bill has his own podcast as well as his own radio program. He is a paid public speaker, who has appeared before hundreds of groups across Michigan to share the trends, the latest developments as well as his knowledge about Michigan government.

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Transcript

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00:00:04.320 --> 00:00:07.040
Most people in the Flint area know the name Ballinger.

00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:12.000
There's Ballinger Highway, one of the 50th roads of Jesus County.

00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:14.240
That leads to Flare Hospital.

00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:18.640
There's the Ballinger Field House on the campus of Fifth Fox Community College.

00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:21.519
And there's Ballinger Park on the west side of Flint.

00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:24.239
There's the Ballinger Speaker Stories.

00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:28.480
That's one of the most prestigious lectures area in the state of Mexico.

00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:33.119
It's hosted by speakers such as Michael Lee, William F.

00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:37.679
Buckley, Harry Philip, Peter Jennings, and many others.

00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:46.159
You might have played basketball or stated at Ballinger Park, which is located near the corner of Fletching and Dilfot and Flint.

00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:50.960
You might have also went to Memorial Park near downtown Flint.

00:00:53.679 --> 00:01:00.399
I must admit, I liked all that was named Ballinger, especially the field house at Bob College.

00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:08.640
It should be noted that Ballinger is also helped found McClare Hospital and other local institutions.

00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:10.319
But who is Ballinger?

00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:11.680
Who are they?

00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:13.040
Where'd they go?

00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:20.879
Why did they leave all this Ballinger's time and we'll go today like William about Ballinger III?

00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:26.799
The quickly about the Flip.

00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:41.840
Bill of Talk Destroy.

00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:56.480
As for Bill, it's a former state senator, a state representative.

00:01:56.879 --> 00:01:58.799
It's also a former professor.

00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:03.120
For decades, Bill published the newsletter inside Michigan politics.

00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:07.040
The must republication for those interested in Michigan government.

00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:10.400
Yes, it's all a podcast, it's well as a radio program.

00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:20.319
He's a big public speaker who has appeared before hundreds of groups across Michigan to share the trends, the latest developments, as well as its knowledge about Michigan.

00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:22.400
Well, I'm glad to join you, Art.

00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:26.080
Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity.

00:02:26.319 --> 00:02:27.680
Let's get right into it.

00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:32.400
Your family uh goes back about your better plan.

00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:33.439
Right, right.

00:02:33.599 --> 00:03:02.800
Well, look, my grandfather, uh who was born in 1866, the year after the Civil War, was a graduating student in an obscure business college in upstate New York when Whiting, who was the head of what was called the Flint Wagon in 1888, sent out a nationwide dragnet search for a bookkeeper.

00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:06.639
A bookkeeper for the Flint Wagon Works.

00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:10.479
This is like the Durant Dort uh Carriage Company.

00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:15.199
This is when the name, the vehicle city really got started.

00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:17.599
It had nothing to do with automobiles.

00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:22.319
This was uh buggy uh for horse-drawn carriage.

00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:24.000
Uh, that's what they did.

00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:28.560
The Flint Wagon Work, Dort Derrick, Durant Dort Carriage Company.

00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:40.159
My grandfather, at the age of like 21, answered the call and came to Flint as a bookkeeper for the Flint Wagon Work in 1888.

00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:48.479
Uh, he actually was born and brought up in rural Cambridge City, Indiana, down near Richmond, Indiana.

00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:52.159
Uh, but he'd gone to this business college in upstate New York.

00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:54.960
So anyway, he comes to Flint all by himself.

00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:06.319
To make a long story short, 15 years later, approximately, maybe 17 years, the Flint Wagon Works became Buick, Buick Motor Company.

00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:14.240
And by that time, my grandfather had worked his way up to the point where he was the first treasurer of Buick.

00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:22.240
In 1906, he was one of the original investors with Billy Durant in forming General Motors.

00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:33.680
He then went on, this is my grandfather, to be the first treasurer of Chevrolet when it was created in 1911.

00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:36.879
He retired in 1926.

00:04:37.040 --> 00:04:38.639
He was 60 years old.

00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:47.839
He spent the rest of his life as a kind of real estate uh dabbler, an investor, and a philanthropist.

00:04:48.240 --> 00:05:00.480
He provided the money that created Ballinger Park and Memorial Park downtown, which was a memorial to his wife, my grandmother, Minnie Ballinger.

00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:12.240
He gave a lot of money to what was then Flint Junior College, now Mott Community College, and they named the fieldhouse in his honor, Ballinger Fieldhouse.

00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:17.519
He was also chairman of the board of what is now McLaren Hospital.

00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:21.519
It was women's hospital back in the day.

00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:34.879
They named the west side of Flint Highway, Ballinger Highway, after him because that's where McLaren broke ground for its new facility there in about 1950.

00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:40.000
My grandfather died in 1951 at the age of 84.

00:05:40.480 --> 00:06:04.560
My father, who was a vice president of Citizens Bank and on the board of directors, succeeding my grandfather, who'd been on the board of Citizens Bank for years, he picked up what my grandfather had created and he developed Ballinger Park where they used to have ice skating where everybody went in the winter.

00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:14.319
I meet people all the time in Flint who said, Oh my god, I remember going to Ballinger Park ice skating in the 50s and so forth and so on.

00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:20.639
So that is a very short version of the history of the Ballinger family.

00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:28.720
And I think it was, I can't remember if it was your dad, your grandfather was also on the Flint School Board.

00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:45.680
He was, and I think that was his connection to what became Flint Junior College, because remember, Flint Junior College was kind of an appendage of the Flint School Board, you know, eventually became Mott Community College years later, after C.S.

00:06:45.839 --> 00:07:01.279
Mott ceded a lot of his private land in Applewood Estate in the college cultural development area in Flint to the college to use as a campus for Flint Junior College.

00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:11.279
So, yes, my grandfather was on the Flint School Board, and my father, subsequently in the 1950s, was elected to the Flint School Board and served on the Flint School Board.

00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:18.319
I was born in 1941, just before Pearl Harbor, March 28th, 1941.

00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:22.959
I had uh three brothers and sisters, one brother, two sisters.

00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:34.879
We grew up on the uh southwest side of Flint, just off Miller Road, in what became Woodcroft Estate Development Area, residential development.

00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:40.079
In those days, there wasn't any Grand Blanc, you know, the way it is today.

00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:45.040
It's unbelievable how Grand Blanc and its area has exploded.

00:07:45.199 --> 00:08:02.720
But at that time, if you were gonna move away from the residential area in the college cultural development on East Court Street near Flint Junior College, you went over to the west side outside the city limits at that time in what is now Flint Township.

00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:05.120
Uh, they started Woodcroft Estates.

00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:11.600
I got to tell you, Art, out of all the people I grew up with at that time, I'm the last one left.

00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:13.839
Uh, everybody else has gone.

00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:22.480
They've either long since moved away from Flint, many of them moved away from Michigan entirely, or they are now deceased.

00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:29.600
And I have kept my old childhood home that I grew up in in Flint off Miller Road.

00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:32.720
That's where I'm talking to you from today.

00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:40.720
I also have a house in Lansing, so I kind of commute back and forth between Lansing and Flint every week.

00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:52.320
Your your family, your grandfather, especially, he was quite a wise person and innovative philanthropy because things he did that is rather unique.

00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:59.279
The parks that you were referenced, Memorial Park and Ballinger Park are parks that are private.

00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:00.240
Exactly.

00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:01.679
But nobody knows it.

00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:07.360
They think it's part of the park system because they're open to the public just the way city parks are.

00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:08.639
But you know what, Art?

00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:18.240
Uh, I think my grandfather must have detected even at that early date that there was something not quite right about Flint city government.

00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:25.519
And I don't think I don't think he wanted to just give his land to the city of Flint.

00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:27.759
He was afraid they would muck it up.

00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:38.960
So he created a pri two private parks, Memorial Park and Ballinger Park, and he created a trust fund in the Citizens Bank, of which he was a direct.

00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:49.919
So even today, the new version of Citizens Bank is Huntington Bank, which is based, believe it or not, in Buckeye Land, Columbus, Ohio.

00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:53.919
They bought First Merit Bank and bought Citizens Bank.

00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:56.159
This all happened about 15 years ago.

00:09:56.399 --> 00:10:00.159
Huntington got first merit about six, seven years ago.

00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:21.519
They have really spruced up Ballinger Park and Memorial Park as something I think you can be proud of today, although they are not as high-tech, high-level recreational as it was back in the glory days of night of the 1950s with the ice skating and the tennis courts and everything else.

00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:30.720
The only thing there is in both parks are basketball courts, as you can imagine, and they are heavily used by all the local kids.

00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:35.519
So that is the way Ballinger and Memorial operate today.

00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:36.480
You're absolutely right.

00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:38.879
They're private parks, but nobody knows.

00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:44.080
But I remember as a kid, you know, looking at that park, and I said, there's something different about that place.

00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:45.200
Got green grass.

00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.000
And uh it's got real grass.

00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:53.120
You know, my park was all full of because the landfill bubbles up over the metal and stone.

00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:55.600
You have a legacy name attached to it.

00:10:55.840 --> 00:11:04.240
One of the greatest field houses in the United States today, because it's the home of this crazy program at Mock College Basket Show.

00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:06.000
Yeah, yeah, the Bears.

00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:07.120
Yeah, they've been great.

00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:13.440
Steve Schmidt, the coach, has been a world-class coach and they won national championships.

00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:16.960
They've really done the job uh until the pandemic.

00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:19.759
Mock College has been blessed because of your family.

00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:21.919
Your family's touched Mock College.

00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:27.120
Some have wrote that we were able to keep such great because of your family endowment legacy years.

00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:39.919
Another thing that my grandfather left was funding for a lecture series, which over the years I would argue is almost the best doing lectures series in the entire state.

00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:50.559
I mean, they've had world-class people, they've had Werner Von Braun, they've had former Br British Prime Minister Harold Wilson, they've had Lech Valenza.

00:11:50.960 --> 00:12:00.480
They're having a program coming up on April 1st uh with John Quinonis, who's an ABC correspondent, uh, who's got his own T show.

00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:03.600
Uh so that continued all this time.

00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:06.320
That began just after my grandfather died.

00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:07.519
Well, you missed one.

00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:08.000
Okay.

00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:09.039
Spike Lee.

00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:11.360
Spike Lee was definitely a speaker.

00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:12.879
I met Spike Lee.

00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:16.080
Uh, there were, you know, Patty Smith came.

00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:19.759
But your uh family, anyway, has touched a lot of lives.

00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:30.960
You know, when you look at all the things that have been done over uh by the auto pioneers who left money in Charles Mott, uh Flint's been blessed in ways that most cities in America hasn't.

00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:41.440
Yeah, a lot of people do not realize with all the terrible news there has been about Flint over the last couple of decades, even before the Flint water crisis.

00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:56.639
I mean, Flint has gotten such a bad rap nationally, and it is viewed as just the pits, the urban, you know, quagmire, uh, the worst of any medium-sized to large American city.

00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:24.720
But a lot of people don't realize that the early auto barons, so to speak, whether they were Mott, Ballinger, Whiting, Bauer, Sloan, all these people, they gave a lot of money to create a college and cultural development which has Whiting Auditorium, which has the Sloan Museum of Automotive History, uh, the Flint Institute of Music and the Flint Institute of Arts.

00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:29.519
And the Flint Institute of Arts is a world-class art museum.

00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:36.639
It's certainly the best art museum and the biggest in Michigan outside of the Detroit Institute of Arts.

00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:37.519
But guess what?

00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:42.080
The Detroit Institute of Arts for years was owned by the city.

00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:46.080
It wasn't a private, you know, entity at all.

00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:48.480
You could say that as a private art museum.

00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:53.600
The Flint Institute of Arts was the very best and the biggest in the entire state.

00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:55.919
And it's bigger and better than ever right now.

00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:59.759
I'll just mention the Long Way Planetarium is also there.

00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:00.960
That's also part of it.

00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:02.320
It's a jewel.

00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:10.799
The cultural center in Flint is the big, biggest and best of its kind in any city in Michigan, and better than most in the United States.

00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.360
You you went you went to Zimmerman.

00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:14.559
Right, exactly.

00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:23.600
I uh went to Zimmerman, which was on uh and still is today on Corona Road, and my brother and sisters went there too.

00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:26.080
Everybody went to the public schools.

00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:33.840
My next door neighbors here in Flint growing up were Harding Mott, the son of C.S.

00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:41.919
Mott and his family to Zimmerman Junior High School, which by the way was in one building in kindergarten and ninth grade.

00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:44.799
You can go all 10 years in one place.

00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.600
It was only five blocks from our house.

00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:52.159
We walked to school or rode our bikes every single day for 10 years.

00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:55.919
Compare that to what's happened to the Flint school system today.

00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:56.720
It's tragic.

00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:00.960
You know, the Flint school system is no more as it existed back then.

00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:02.799
Which junior high did you go to?

00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:05.840
Or which high I was gonna tell you, I'm a McKinley Falcon.

00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:07.120
Oh, yeah, McKinley.

00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:13.679
We had, you know, McKinley, Longfellow, Lowell, Emerson, Whittier, and Zimmerman.

00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:18.080
They were the six public junior high schools, seventh, eighth, and ninth.

00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:20.240
We didn't have middle schools in those days.

00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.159
I still think junior high schools were the best way to go.

00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:31.759
Uh, go K six and then go junior high seven through nine with those six schools that I just mentioned.

00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:33.759
And we had intense rivalries.

00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:35.919
Remember the basketball games every winter?

00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:36.559
Oh, yeah.

00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:39.759
Home and home home and away for each school.

00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:41.519
Uh, it was really something.

00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:44.559
And some incredible athletes came out of those schools.

00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:50.240
I went to Freeman Element School, which just a few blocks from named after Ralph Freeman.

00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:51.200
Did you know him?

00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:52.639
Did you know Ralph Freeman?

00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:57.279
I didn't know him personally, but you know, I certainly knew the family.

00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:58.480
I knew who he was.

00:15:58.559 --> 00:15:59.279
Yes, absolutely.

00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:01.279
And they named the school after him.

00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:05.519
Uh Ralph Freeman was the prosecuting attorney in Chelsea County at one point.

00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:08.480
You were privileged to go to some great Princeton.

00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:23.440
Between Zimmerman and Princeton, I went to a private secondary school in New Jersey called Lawrenceville, which is a very great school, third biggest prep school in the country, all male at the time.

00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.519
Uh now, obviously, like almost all of these schools, co-ed.

00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:34.960
And actually, I'm class secretary for the class of 1958 at the Lawrenceville School right now.

00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:38.480
And then I went to Princeton and I was in the class of 62.

00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.600
Yes, and then you went on to uh Harvard.

00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:43.360
Well, I didn't go right away.

00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:48.399
Actually, I did quite a bit between the time I graduated from Princeton in 62.

00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:56.559
I got my master's of public administration from the Kennedy School at Harvard in 1977, 15 years later.

00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:57.039
Oh, yeah.

00:16:57.600 --> 00:16:59.039
Yeah, in between.

00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:04.880
After that, somehow after you got to school, ended up, I'm not sure which when you got out of school.

00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:08.319
Uh two of the first three years I spent in Europe.

00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:18.079
Uh, but I worked in some time as a newspaper reporter at Evansville, Indiana, down on the Ohio River, the Evansville Press.

00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:20.160
I was also a freelance writer.

00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:24.000
Then I was hired by, let me tell you about Evansville.

00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:25.599
A lot of people don't know.

00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:32.880
They've got one of the most uh colorful nicknames of any college in the country, the Purple Aces.

00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:38.720
And guess who was a member of their basketball team when I was a reporter down there?

00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:40.319
Jerry Sloan.

00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:41.359
Oh my gosh.

00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:48.720
Who went on to be a great player with the Chicago Bulls and then a great head coach with the Utah Jazz.

00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:52.559
He recently passed away, but a very famous guy.

00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:58.240
And a lot of people don't realize that Jerry Sloan was the original Evansville Purple Ace.

00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.200
You escaped Indiana basketball country.

00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:07.119
Somehow you made it back to Michigan and you got a hanker in to run for public office.

00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:14.400
Well, I started working for LA Peterson, the Republican State Central Committee as a research director and a public relations person.

00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:31.680
I was living in a farmhouse in rural Ovid, OVID in western Shiawassee County, which is, as everybody who ever went to Flint or is from Flint knows, uh, between Flint and Lansing.

00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:38.319
I ran for a vacant seat in the state House of Representatives in 1968.

00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:40.720
I was 27 years old.

00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:48.799
I was only six years out of college, and I'd spent two of those six years in Europe, and I was elected.

00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:53.920
So I served one two-year term in the House, 1969-70.

00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:59.039
Then there was a vacancy for the state senate uh in 1970.

00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:00.000
I ran for that.

00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:05.920
I had no primary opponent in the Republican primary, it was a very Republican district.

00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:08.640
I then won the general election.

00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:11.920
I served one four-year term in the Senate.

00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:19.440
So I uh served with a lot of the exotic characters that you know very well in the Democratic Party.

00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:22.000
In particular, I served with Coleman Young.

00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:28.880
Coleman Young was the Democratic floor leader, and I served on the House press committee with Coleman Young.

00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:30.559
I knew Coleman Young very well.

00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:32.319
Coleman Young was a character.

00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:37.759
You if you ever got him privately to talk to him, you can quickly see why he got to be wherever he was.

00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.519
Because he had absolutely oh he was incredible.

00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:50.640
He really ran the Democratic Party in the Senate because the majority the minority leader, it was really interesting.

00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:55.279
When I was in the Senate, believe it or not, it was a 1919 tie.

00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:59.759
And the only reason the Republicans controlled was because the lieutenant government.

00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:07.599
Jim Brickley was a Republican and he could break the tie, just like Kamala Harris could break ties in the U.S.

00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:08.480
Senate today.

00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:10.160
It was the same situation.

00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:18.880
The one thing that I was most interested in is taking you back a little bit into the way back in the Republican Party during your era.

00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:27.680
There was a bit of factions growing that gave rise to this sort of ultra-conservative bunch, which was led by John John Engler.

00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:28.160
Right.

00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:28.559
Yeah.

00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:39.359
And I assume from watching you over many years that you were in a more moderate posture, uh, more of a Bill Millican type than a John Engler type.

00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:40.160
I was.

00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:44.240
I was definitely considered a Millikan, moderate Republican.

00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:47.759
Uh, but let me tell you something you'll find interesting.

00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:52.720
You sat next to John Engler in law school and you got to know John Engler.

00:20:52.880 --> 00:21:03.599
Let me say that when John Engler was first elected to the state house in 1970, his district contained Montcalm County.

00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:15.759
That's where Greenville is, and a lot of small towns like Sheridan and Vestaburg and Edmore and Carson City and uh places that a lot of people don't know about.

00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:18.480
And that was in my Senate district.

00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:21.359
So John Engler and I overlapped.

00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:38.240
John Engler and I actually set up a district office uh in Greenville, and we alternated weeks going up to Greenville and sitting in the office to hear from constituents who wanted to come in and talk to us and everything else.

00:21:38.400 --> 00:22:00.480
And John Engler, uh, who was a graduate of Beale City High School west of Mount Pleasant in Isabella County, invited me to come up and give the commencement address to Beale City High School when I was a senator in 1971, I think it was, or 72, and he was in the House.

00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:10.400
And I remember going to the Engler Farmhouse and having a big Engler family summer dinner, family dinner, after the speech.

00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:36.160
Even though Engler, uh at that time he was a little bit unformed in terms of his philosophy and ideology, he grew to be uh more conservative over time than Millican was, and he eventually, by the late 1970s, became the face of the kind of anti-Millican, if you want to call it that, wing of the Republican Party.

00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:38.240
Uh, you left the Senate.

00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:40.880
Did you run for Congress at one point?

00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:51.599
I ran for Congress, but I lost the primary to Cliff Taylor, who then was a lawyer in East Lansing.

00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:56.079
But Cliff Taylor then lost the general election to Bob Carr.

00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:01.920
And Bob Carr went on to be a congressman for a long time, with the exception of two years.

00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:05.920
He lasted for 20 years all the way up to 1994.

00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:10.319
Cliff Taylor came back and ran against Bob Carr in 76.

00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:11.680
He lost again.

00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:26.559
Cliff Taylor actually ended up as Supreme Court Chief Justice because John Engler, who had become a very good friend of Cliff Taylor, appointed him originally to the Court of Appeals.

00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:29.359
From there, appointed him the Supreme Court.

00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:38.160
Cliff Taylor actually was never, never elected uh to any office that he to which he had not originally been appointed.

00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:38.640
Okay.

00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:46.240
I mean, he never won a freestanding election uh without being an incumbent because he was appointed by England.

00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:47.759
Well, let's come back to Flint.

00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:55.759
Uh your family has a long history in Flint, and there are a lot of people who I'm curious to know more about, if you know anything about.

00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.680
One of those is the only governor from Flint, Henry Crapo.

00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.839
Well, now, maybe I may be old, Art, but I'm not that old.

00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:09.039
Uh are there any family stories about Henry Crapo that you can share with us?

00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:12.480
Uh no family stories about Henry Crapo.

00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:15.440
I mean, you're talking about a Civil War governor.

00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:17.359
He was a Civil War governor.

00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:25.519
But look, Art, Art, let me just tell you, remember, Crapo, Crapo had a farm out in Swartz Creek area.

00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:28.640
You know, we all talk about Billy Durant, right?

00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:30.480
The founder of General Motors.

00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:32.720
Well, what was his middle name?

00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:37.119
His middle name was Crapo, William Crapo Durant.

00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:41.839
And his Henry Crapo's physician, I think, was named Wilson.

00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:52.640
We did grow up over here in the Woodcroft Estates off Miller Road with Francis Wilson Thompson, who was a descendant of Crapo.

00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:55.759
So I knew Fran Thompson very well.

00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:05.839
And but you know, if you're asking me about uh Henry Crapo, we're talking about the late 1860s after the Civil War.

00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:14.160
The only other governor from Flint was Bagol, Josiah Bagol, in the 1880s for one term, one two-year term.

00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:21.680
I think there have been only two governors from Genesee County, but I cannot tell you personal stories.

00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:31.279
My grandfather, 130 years ago when he came to Flint in 1888, that was 20 years after Andrew Crapo had been governor.

00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:40.079
You know, the Flint Golf Club has been an historical golf club in many ways, and was founded by many of the people who founded General Motor.

00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:42.319
Do you have any Flint Golf Club stories for us?

00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:53.920
Well, I can only tell you that the main mover and shaker was Jay Dallas Dort, who was a mayor of Flint early in the 20th century.

00:25:54.000 --> 00:26:06.240
I mean, he was mayor around 1905, around the time Buick was formed, when my grandfather was treasurer of Buick and Bill Durant was fixing to organize General Motors.

00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:13.119
Jay Dallas Dort was the one who really kind of picked out the property for the Flint Golf Club.

00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:30.480
One time they talked about creating the Flint Golf Club on ground, which has ever since been Swartz Creek Golf Club, which is where this uh Woodcroft Estates development off Miller Road uh is sited.

00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:33.359
Uh many of the homes overlook Swartz Creek.

00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:40.559
And apparently Dallas Stuart looked at that and he decided, you know, I got a better deal over here on the east side.

00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:49.920
And so in 19, you know, I can't remember exactly when he did because Dallas Stuart unfortunately died relatively young in 1925.

00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:52.720
Uh he was in his 50s, I think.

00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:57.599
And by that time, the the golf club was up and up and firing on all cylinders.

00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:04.640
And at one time, I mean, I remember the PGA national tournament was held one year at the Flint Golf Club.

00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.279
Yeah, there was a tournament called the Carling Open.

00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:08.640
Yes, I remember that.

00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:08.960
Yeah.

00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:12.319
It was sponsored, it was sponsored by Leo Seidi.

00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:12.880
Yeah.

00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:27.200
Who incidentally he's of Jewish heritage and uh he wasn't allowed to be part of that golf course at that time, but later was invited, it was a crazy story, but later was invited to become a member alone Warren.

00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:29.519
Uh he did a podcast, by the way.

00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:30.720
He tells the story.

00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:31.279
C.S.

00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:33.759
Mott, do you have any memories of him?

00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:34.559
Oh, yeah.

00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:36.799
I I have a lot of memories of C.S.

00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:37.519
Mott.

00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:46.000
First of all, I mentioned earlier our next door neighbors here in Flint when I was growing up were C.S.

00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:48.480
Harding Mott, his son, C.

00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:51.039
S.'s son, their two children.

00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:57.599
And I was very good friends with Claire Mott, uh, who became Claire Mott White.

00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:02.240
She married Bill White, who was later head of the Mott Foundation.

00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:16.000
And in the summer of 1951, believe it or not, Claire invited me down to the Mott estate on the island of Bermuda in the Atlantic Ocean, where C.S.

00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:25.119
Mott for years had a vacation home, and Harding and his wife Jerry and their two kids, Harding Jr.

00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:28.160
and Claire, uh spent summers.

00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:34.079
So I spent five weeks with the Mott in Bermuda when I was 10 years old.

00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:35.039
I I knew C.

00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:35.359
S.

00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:35.839
Mott.

00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:43.440
I mean, I he had a second family, a generation younger than the one he had by his first wife.

00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:44.720
A lot of people don't realize.

00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:45.279
C.S.

00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:47.359
Mott was married four times.

00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:55.519
And he had three children by his first wife, and he had three children by his fourth wife, none by his second and third.

00:28:55.920 --> 00:29:04.079
The kids that were born to his fourth wife, Ruth Mott, uh, were my age, uh, either slightly younger or a little older.

00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.440
One of them was Mary Ann Mott, who is still alive.

00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:12.640
I was over very often, parties, birthday parties at C.S.

00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:19.039
Mott's house on the east side, uh, right near Flint Junior College, Mott Community College.

00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:20.319
Yes, I knew C.S.

00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:20.880
Mott.

00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:21.519
C.S.

00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:27.440
Mott was younger than my grandfather by about 12, uh, 15 years.

00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:45.119
So he was a youngster born in the late 1870s or 1880, but he was quite old by the time I knew him, but he was still pretty hail and hardy, and he lived, you know, right up until I think the early 1990s.

00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:46.720
How would you describe him?

00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:52.720
By that time, I mean, he'd had this incredible career, and he was a politician as well.

00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:54.480
He had been mayor of Flint.

00:29:54.799 --> 00:30:19.440
He actually ran for governor at one point, but you know, he was taciturn, uh, somewhat aloof, a man of few words, I imagine when he was younger in his salad days, uh, he was fairly loquacious and he had to be verbally skilled to have done as well in so many respects, both in business and as a politician.

00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:23.519
You got to remember, I'm five, ten, fifteen years old.

00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:27.920
And when you meet uh this August figure like C.S.

00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:34.480
Mott, you don't expect to have great heart-to-heart hail fellow well-met conversations.

00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:41.440
You're deferential, you know, you're kind of almost in awe when you meet somebody like that.

00:30:41.599 --> 00:31:03.359
But he had a presence, the Applewood Estate, which is still very much uh extant, uh, still going strong, at least before the pandemic, with tours periodically throughout the year by local uh citizens are able to come go around the estate and uh the house and everything else.

00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:05.279
Really a fascinating story.

00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:10.079
I knew uh the Mott House inside and outside very well in those days.

00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:17.279
He was a cool guy, as far as I was concerned, because as kids we used to see him down hanging around Creskies at the lunch counter.

00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:19.039
He was very humble, you know.

00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:24.240
Honestly, uh late in life, I mean the only car he had was a little Corvair.

00:31:24.559 --> 00:31:26.319
And he loved this little Corvair.

00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:29.759
He was very, I mean, he was a man, he was parsimonious.

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:31.920
He lived very humbly.

00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:35.359
Uh, he might be dressed in a three-piece suit.

00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:47.440
He was very quiet, very humble, very man of, he wasn't an extravagant person in any way, shape, or form the way he lived or the way he talked.

00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:51.759
He was looking to save a dime wherever he could at any time.

00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:59.359
There was an irony to it because he was a man of immense wealth, but he was nevertheless tight with his money.

00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:01.440
Yeah, well, he's still giving.

00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:04.480
Well, uh, Bill, I've got one other thing.

00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:11.839
Now, you're part of a trioke of pundits in Michigan that includes Jack Lesenberry, Scooby, yourself.

00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.720
Are there any pundits coming along after you?

00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:15.920
Well, I don't know.

00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:19.119
Punditry seems to be dying out a little bit.

00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:31.599
Pundit is somebody who bloviates somewhat and is not shy about prognosticating and predicting, and that's what I did for many years.

00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:36.319
In fact, more than not only Skupick, but more than Jack Lesenberry.

00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:48.319
I mean, one of the things that the Inside Michigan Politics Newsletter did that you subscribe to was we'd pick winners of races uh around the state for the legislature, even judgeships.

00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:54.240
As far as I know, we were the only publication of its kind, not only in Michigan, but maybe nationally.

00:32:54.400 --> 00:33:02.480
We would actually pick the winners and losers of any every judicial race in Michigan from the Supreme Court on down.

00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:11.680
And we even went into uh local prosecutors races like Art Bush, you know, versus uh Bob Weiss or whatever.

00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:14.799
That was kid white shoes versus black bark.

00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:21.839
Well, I'm saying, I mean, that's that's what that's what a pundit does.

00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:27.200
So I had to learn to be polite and nice to my I know vanquished opponent.

00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:30.000
That must have been painful, painful.

00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:31.519
That must have been painful.

00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:32.880
Not for me.

00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:43.039
Well, maybe not, but you probably uh rankled uh from the fact that you had to be to be more polite toward him than you would have liked to be.

00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:53.920
Yeah, no, he was he was rescued, he was he was rescued from oblivion by the appointment of a judgeship, he's somewhat like Cliff Taylor.

00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:56.400
Thank you, Bill Ballinger, for joining me.

00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:02.960
Uh you're an amazing guy with uh a great uh great memory and uh great uh uh.