Feb. 17, 2022

The First Internet Murder Trial (ft David Nickola)

The Sharee Miller murder case is one of Michigan's most notable criminal cases this century. The love triangle that Ms. Miller fostered resulted in the death of her husband, Bruce Miller.

Sharee engaged in a torrid affair with a Kansas City cop. She convinced her then-boyfriend, Jerry Cassady, to come to Michigan and murder her husband, Bruce.

Ms. Miller did so using a litany of falsehoods about her husband abusing her and the love child she was carrying.

Jerry Cassady killed himself, leaving behind a suicide note and a laptop computer. The laptop held a treasure trove of filthy and incriminating evidence of the murder plot. The emails and chats gave the Genesee County jury a road map to convict Ms. Miller for her role in the murder.

In the end, two men died, and Sharee Miller was convicted and imprisoned.

Our guest on this episode is David Nickola, a criminal defense attorney. Mr. Nickola was Sharee Miller's defense attorney at trial.

Back in 2000, former Prosecutor Arthur Busch charged Sharee Miller with murder. The attorneys discuss the case and the ins and outs of the trial. They also share their handling of the jury trial. Attorney Nickola shares insights about his client, the jury's selection, and fascinating tidbits.

The national media extensively covered this case over the past 20 years. ABC 20/20 did a segment on a confession letter Miller sent to the Judge in the case three years ago! At the trial, the Court TV covered the entire trial live. We thought you would enjoy the unfiltered perspectives on this case and this defendant.

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The music heard on this podcast episode is "Flint River Water," is performed by singer-songwriter Colton Ort. Colton wrote this original song to commemorate the Flint Water Crisis. We appreciate his support for Radio Free Flint and for allowing us to use his music in this episode.

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Transcript

WEBVTT

00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:08.960
Hello, this is Arthur Bush.

00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:11.519
Thank you for joining us at Radio Free Flint.

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Today's podcast is about the Cherie Miller case, people vs.

00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:18.160
Sheree Miller.

00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:24.559
It was a murder that happened in 2000 in Genesee County and in Clough, Michigan.

00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:31.600
I have the trial attorney that tried that case to verdict, and I, of course, was the prosecutor in that case.

00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:49.520
We've decided, uh, in light of recent national publicity on 2020 and uh Dateline and other outlets, we'd decide to do our own panel discussion and fill you in on what we feel uh really happened in this case.

00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:50.560
So join us.

00:00:50.719 --> 00:01:38.239
This is the first true crime broadcast we've had in quite some time, and I hope you enjoy it! This is David Nicola, who is a super lawyer from Flint, Michigan.

00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:40.400
Welcome, David, to Radio Free Flint.

00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:41.599
Welcome, Art.

00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:42.400
Thanks for having me.

00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:48.400
And I must say, after all these years, uh we're actually not fighting.

00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:49.840
Yes, that's correct.

00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:51.200
We're on the same team now.

00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:53.519
Yet, welcome, by the way.

00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:55.760
We had a case, it was People vs.

00:01:55.840 --> 00:02:04.640
Sheree Miller, and it obviously turned into a national media frenzy on Court TV and the Good Morning America.

00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:20.639
These all these different uh networks were covering it because it was uh so salacious at the time, uh, because there was videos set back and forth from her to her uh friend that she had uh allegedly conspired with to kill her husband.

00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:35.520
So uh she's started this affair, and but this was the this was the very beginning of chat rooms and the very beginning and the very essence of non-commercial use of the internet, and uh this was right in the heart of it.

00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:39.840
So there's a lot of new things happening, and it was uh, you know, the technical stuff.

00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:45.120
There's there weren't a lot of experts at that time uh that weren't teaching at schools or whatnot.

00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:49.599
And so it it was really fresh, new, very salacious, naughty.

00:02:49.759 --> 00:03:00.080
People like that stuff, but it was serious too, because uh uh an individual was murdered, her husband, and it uh you know, it became the oh, she did it, that type of thing.

00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:01.599
Maybe she did, maybe she didn't.

00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:04.879
And there was a lot of evidence on each end that went both ways.

00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:13.840
And quite frankly, uh, as this matter went along, uh in the conclusion of it, the jury was split between men and women, uh, right down the middle.

00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:20.000
And uh the men were voting to acquit, and the women were uh didn't like her.

00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:25.759
So the case we're talking about is people versus Sheree Miller in Genesee County Circuit Court.

00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:30.960
It was tried uh in front of uh Judge Judith Judith A.

00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:33.520
Fullerton, a circuit judge.

00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:36.319
I just happened to be the prosecuting attorney.

00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:40.319
David was the defense attorney, as things would turn out.

00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:49.439
I did not try the case, I put the case together as it was rolling long, uh, and then uh assigned a team of lawyers to work on it.

00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:54.479
And we worked together throughout the case uh until the verdict came back.

00:03:54.639 --> 00:04:06.719
So it's unusual to see the prosecuting attorney on one side and the defense attorney on the other chatting about this case that they both handled, but there are some unusual developments this past week.

00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:10.639
David, why don't you tell us what those developments were?

00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:16.399
They they re redid in this case on 2020, and it's been many, many years, over a decade.

00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:21.120
And before that, Dateline did a couple hours special on it as well.

00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:24.079
So we're talking about network TV, national TV.

00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:28.399
ABC is 2020, and I think Dateline is NBC, correct?

00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:28.959
Yeah, yeah.

00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:47.600
And the trial was uh filmed, or or at least it was uh projected uh in the courtroom, and that was at that was at the height of court TV, and they played the whole trial, and every year on New Year's Day was like their biggest trial, and they played that over about three times or four times every January first.

00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:55.040
Yes, there was a lot of people watching the television show, but they've they just replayed it over and over again, so new audience members didn't know what happened.

00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:57.279
So I they they liked that part about it.

00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:02.160
Well, they actually covered it gavel to gavel, yeah, and live.

00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:13.279
And uh in those days, uh it wasn't uncommon to have our trials covered gavel to gavel by even the local media.

00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:18.639
Sheree Miller was an interesting defendant, and this is an interesting case for a lot of reasons.

00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:36.160
Number one is it's everybody's interested in uh who did it and why, and it also has sex, it has jealousy as a motive, it has all the all the ingredients, you know, manipulation, love, love.

00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:37.759
I don't know if love was in this.

00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:41.360
She did profess love in her confession letter.

00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:51.839
Uh, but it's it's an interesting case because it contains all these elements that uh Dave and I have seen over many years in homicide cases in Flint.

00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:55.600
And there was something weird about this case.

00:05:55.759 --> 00:06:04.480
And the weird part was back then, David, a young lawyer who had quite a bit of experience at the time he tried this case, emails.

00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:07.600
We didn't use emails, we're the documents.

00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:14.959
So we're taught in law school and how to how to make sure this document's often authentic.

00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:26.399
And so we learned all the procedures about how to prove that something should be considered as truth by the jury, as as uh that has veracity.

00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:31.839
And uh this case presented a whole different wrinkle to it, which was email.

00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:39.839
Talk about that for a second, David, because that really set this trial off in a direction that I didn't want it to go.

00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:40.879
Yeah, yeah.

00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:53.519
Well, well, we we now know, and we we were learning at the time and was progressing, that uh you know, you do you could do an email and uh someone would send something as much as like, hi Dave, this is art.

00:06:53.920 --> 00:07:03.199
And on my end, when you send that, I could change whatever you wanted, it's didn't want to say, or I could put anything in there, I could put a whole paragraph in and it would be associated with you.

00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:22.399
And that was really dangerous for some people because if they're out there playing around and uh poking around, or maybe adulterous uh situations going, uh, people could really add enhance to something and maybe get get them to say maybe things that they didn't want to say, or you know, really get put somebody in in a bundle because they could uh basically blackmail them.

00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:23.199
Correct.

00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:44.879
And besides making up their own story, at that time we had no concept of what cyberspace was, and and the email process to prove it's authentic, you have to show that that person that touched those keys is the same person who sent that thing that went into your email box.

00:07:45.040 --> 00:08:05.519
You remember that when the showing that process in between sending it and when it was received, and when the police then forensically took a laptop and discovered the emails, you had to show this thing's bouncing all and it bounces all over the world, right?

00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:06.079
Right.

00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:08.240
Was that difficult for you?

00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:26.000
Well, I I hired an expert uh who is a Michigan State uh young professor, and uh he he went through and did the whole analysis of the of the software because the uh law enforcement and your office obtained that, and that was uh vitally important in this case.

00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:30.240
But the same situation with the on my point was is exactly what you said.

00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:32.080
Somebody can write anything in.

00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:38.000
At that time, there were no safeguards, so I could just say hi, and you could put in anything you want from me.

00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:44.960
And when we're dealing with somebody who is like this, and they have this relationship and you know, back and forth, it was this torrid relationship.

00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:48.960
Sometimes it was great, sometimes they were fighting, all sorts of things like that.

00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:51.360
You just wondered, is this real?

00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:55.360
Because she was acting like she was assaulted by a whole bunch of people that her husband made her do.

00:08:55.600 --> 00:09:08.399
It just it didn't seem realistic, and there was no evidence really of it, but you could take a picture and pretend, you know, use it to make up and show that you're all beat up by your husband, which which occurred in this particular case, and it really didn't happen.

00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:09.840
It really didn't happen.

00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:15.600
And I I was looking at this like, wow, this thing is uh this thing is so manipulatable.

00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:25.120
It's almost as if she sat in the in the dark recesses of her home and constructed a narrative for this fabulous soap opera.

00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:25.759
Yeah.

00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:27.440
Well, she met she met Jerry first.

00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:32.320
Uh he was uh he had some problems, used to be a police officer, he lost his job doing that.

00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:33.440
He was drinking a lot.

00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:35.120
That's no one's gonna argue with that.

00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:37.279
Okay, Jerry Cassidy was his name.

00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:38.720
Jerry Cassidy, yeah.

00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:40.799
And and that's how they met out in Reno.

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She took a weekend with the girls, and her husband went down to watch the NASCAR uh in Vegas.

00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:49.679
And so she ended up meeting him, and it was the tour to fair, you know, basically.

00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:50.879
And that's where it started.

00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:58.960
And the emails that were subsequently back and forth were just like uh out of like a book, you know, a Harlequin romance type of thing.

00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:02.480
Some of it was nice and some of it was dirty, and some of it was filthy.

00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:04.159
And that was one of my concerns.

00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:05.919
You know, we had uh it was split.

00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:09.200
There was uh women and men on this, and some good people, you know.

00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:15.200
I saw some some crosses on some of the women's uh come out of their sweater wearing their their crucifix.

00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:17.919
And I thought, man, this is gonna get this.

00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:27.759
We got to be real careful about who we get put on this jury because so you weren't looking, you weren't looking for the little old lady with blue hair from the first Baptist church of Mount Morris.

00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:30.639
No, no, that's but but guess what?

00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:41.120
We went through all of our choices basically to pick a jury, and that's we when you get down to the nitty-gritty, you only have a few picks left, and you can't just kick somebody off because there weren't a crucifix.

00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:48.320
So we had it, we had uh some some home moms, home moms that did have those crucifix, and I had to talk to them about it.

00:10:48.480 --> 00:11:00.080
You know, here I am from Powers Catholic High School, and I gotta walk a fine line to make sure that they don't get offended because likely they're gonna be on the jury because we were down to just one pick uh to pick off out of a crowd.

00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:02.000
Uh that's how the process works.

00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:06.320
So it was uh walking on a minefield that uh we didn't know where the mines were.

00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:13.679
Well, let me come back to the jury here in a second, but uh let's lay out the facts of this case a little more as we're we're talking.

00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:26.320
One of the things, one of the things that I did want to say was not only was it on television and these what we call news magazines, a lifetime movie was made of this.

00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:30.240
It was a movie made from uh a best-selling book.

00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:37.919
So the script came from from the book, I believe, and then it became a movie on television on the Lifetime Channel.

00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:42.240
Uh, this is cases just had, as you mentioned, the regular press.

00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:53.360
I'm talking TV, radio, newspaper magazines have just been uh relentless and not wanting to give this case up to the great gods in the sky.

00:11:53.600 --> 00:12:02.399
But what happened is essentially is he committed suicide and uh he lived in, as I recall, it was Kansas City.

00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:23.919
He left a handwritten note, and that note was essentially a suicide note, which laid out his relationship with Shri Miller as well as his involvement in this homicide uh of her husband, uh, which occurred in Flint, Michigan, actually in Clio, Michigan.

00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:33.200
He had come to Michigan at her insistence, that he came to Michigan and they discussed killing their husband.

00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.519
Uh, and there's a lot in between all that.

00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:58.720
The case was assigned to the Genesee County Sheriff's Department, was investigated there by a couple of detectives, Kevin Chanlon and Ives Betrovka, who later became an investigator for the Attorney General's office, and he was an expert in uh cybercrime or a computer crime, and that really was how he got involved in this case.

00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:03.600
Tell us about your experience, David, with picking that jury.

00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:09.919
What we did, you know, I wanted to have people that were real and sort of had some involvement in the internet.

00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:18.399
Some people didn't, some people did, but that way they would have a concept that you can really live whatever you want to live, be whatever you want to be.

00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:21.919
And just because you're not being truthful doesn't mean you're a bad person.

00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:25.279
You're just enjoying the benefits of having this new creation.

00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:34.320
So you can be Superman to women, or they can be uh, you know, beautiful Daisy May, and in reality they're not, but they're just seeing pictures.

00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:43.919
And uh, but they like that there was this the the honeymoon of this thing was it started, was a lot of people using it for sexual sexual advances that never would happen.

00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:45.120
They never would meet up.

00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:47.600
It would just people would have multiple different people.

00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:56.159
Jerry Cassidy had multiple different women that he was flirting with and talking dirty with, and you know, there's even some gay porn on his uh his uh hard drive.

00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:59.840
So I'm not sure what how that correlates to him or not, but it was on there.

00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:03.120
And uh so you you can really be whoever you wanted to.

00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:14.720
And if you had time on your hands, because most people have to work, but Cherie wasn't, you know, she's dabbling with some work and taking care of her kids, but also Jerry was out of work and he's living in his cousin's basement.

00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:20.639
And so they he had lots of time, you know, his hard drive showed his he's he was working other women too.

00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:22.559
And that's was a point I was trying to get at.

00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:28.480
If we're gonna play this game, this sexual game, because believe me, we couldn't even say this on the internet.

00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:34.480
Uh, but it was really uh really salacious stuff about what they wanted to do with each other here.

00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:41.360
You know, I said I during the trial when I was doing closing, I said that this material would make a pimp blush because it was that bad.

00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:42.960
It was that bad.

00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:55.440
Well, when you were picking the jury, you actually had a man who was actually a member of the media, yes, was sitting in that jury pool and uh ended up in the box.

00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:56.000
Yes.

00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:57.600
And tell us about him.

00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:00.240
You can identify him by name, he's quite proud of his work.

00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:01.279
Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:02.000
Michael Thorpe.

00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:06.320
And he was just interviewed uh on that uh special they had uh in 2020.

00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:14.960
You know, he's a charismatic guy, he was a newscaster, and then he was involved in the media for a long time and Boy Scout leader, just a good, really good guy.

00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:23.919
I I thought, well, from his TV persona, and and that goes to his real life because I met him privately away from uh you know uh the television.

00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.960
Just he was a very good guy, a very straightforward guy.

00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:33.039
And uh I knew that there was, you know, that could be a problem, but it might not be a problem because I know he's fair.

00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:41.840
And we had exhausted a lot, and I was more concerned about some of these people that had deep religious uh tendencies, and they didn't seem like they really wanted to be there.

00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:45.919
I asked a few questions, but I left him on at the time.

00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:47.759
Um, and he was very friendly.

00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:53.840
Judge Fullerton, who was our presiding judge, she knew him well from media because these cases have media.

00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:59.120
And so she was smiling at him, not smiling at me, but smiling at him.

00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:04.720
And so I knew that there might be the possibility of something, but you know, the client approved leaving him on.

00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:39.200
The attorney that tried the case on my side, which was Marcy Mann, came back and reported that he ended up on the jury because our prior conversations was if he's in that jury pool, we weren't too keen on him as a juror in the case, not because we didn't think he'd be particularly fair, but we thought that we could we knew him and and he had covered crime in Flint, so he he was gonna have some expertise that we were worried about, you know, him dominating the jury.

00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:44.080
So I indicated to her I wasn't real crazy about that idea, keeping him on a jury.

00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:48.960
When he finally was selected, I really had my doubts.

00:16:49.120 --> 00:17:02.480
Uh, and it was only because when you put somebody like this on a jury, not that he couldn't be fair or impartial, but what he would become is uh he would dominate the jury, is what my fear was.

00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:06.880
So because of his special knowledge, because of his status in the community.

00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:07.599
Yeah.

00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:14.640
He always seemed to me to be a very fair guy in my previous uh meetings with him, sort of right right down the middle.

00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:17.359
Exactly what you said is exactly what I thought.

00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:21.680
Well, okay, uh there could be problems with that, and you don't want somebody who's so strong.

00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:26.319
And he's a religious man, and that can have a factor because I knew what was coming.

00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:27.039
All right.

00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:43.759
I knew it was coming, you people knew it was coming, you saw the pictures, you saw the video, you saw the back and forth with uh, you know, the information that uh, you know, at that time it was way out there, but now it's like everyday situations you'd see.

00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:55.200
But but he eventually got to be on the jury and and as I thought, and I think you probably did too, he would become the guy in charge of the jury, basically.

00:17:55.759 --> 00:18:06.319
He was the only male that was uh that we had this problem because between he and the and the women on this, they all voted for a guilt to some degree.

00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:13.839
Yeah, I don't and I don't know what degree it was at that time because I think that uh the judge wanting to get this case over with, that they had been out for a long time.

00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:16.559
And we took this thing right up to Christmas Eve almost.

00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:19.519
We were Friday at 10 o'clock p.m., which is very unusual.

00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:21.519
They don't keep the courts open like that anymore.

00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:27.200
But at that time, the jury was out for several days and people were crying and screaming and yelling.

00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:35.440
You know, I had a walked in the office of the Judge Fort's office, and I'd see a couple lawyers or maybe some staff members, you know, they can hear everything that's going on.

00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:36.160
You know that.

00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:39.200
We know that that goes on, and they're not supposed to do that.

00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:42.160
But uh that everyone was so interested in what's going on.

00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:45.359
But there was yelling and screaming, and they come out, some people crying.

00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:52.160
So I thought, well, okay, I figured that the men would think this guy's full of you know BS.

00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:59.359
He's just trying to get some uh you know free ride from a gal that my client pretended she had lots of money, her husband had lots of money, but they didn't.

00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:05.039
They were living a very uh, you know, he he had been married before and two other times.

00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:10.160
And so they just kind of crashed into each other and fell in love, and things were going great until this situation occurred.

00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:14.880
And I think that was just like a fantasy that got pushed too far, and then they were all in on it.

00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:16.480
It's like your chips in Reno.

00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:18.720
You push your chips in there and you're all in.

00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:23.680
And that's what I think really happened to these two because it turned into something way different than a fantasy.

00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:33.279
The plot basically has this sort affair as its central focus, and Jerry Cassidy becomes sort of the forlorn lover at some point, doesn't he?

00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:36.799
He was dishonest with his own family too, because he's pretty broke.

00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:40.559
And he told his mother, could he borrow a flight to go see Cherie?

00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:52.319
Because he told her, he told the family all about her, and he didn't go into all the details about her being married and everything, but you know, he made it sound like she was, you know, Rolls-Royce material driving, and that that just wasn't the case, you know.

00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:59.039
She's a Vermont Morris, you know, working at the auto uh race place, and you know, she's just had a little job time.

00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:03.599
She really liked that uh that whole sort of game, if you want to call it that.

00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.400
You know, she could she could dress up and look very professional because she did do some Mary K cosmetics.

00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:18.079
And so anyway, that's uh that she she came off like that, but he did say to his mom he needed 700 bucks to fly to Flint because Sri was having an abortion.

00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:20.160
And that that didn't that was not true.

00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:25.200
And this is before the that came out in and the stuff going back and forth on the emails.

00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:28.559
So he he had lied to his own mother, and we got into that trial, you know.

00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:29.200
So that was an important.

00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:34.960
I thought that was very important because if he's gonna lie to his mom for money, he's gonna lie to anybody about getting money.

00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:38.559
I I didn't think that he was gonna be the one that would uh would would shoot him.

00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:50.079
Now she did uh she was uh extremely manipulative, and she described her husband uh to this Jerry as somebody that was in the mafia.

00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:50.799
Yeah.

00:20:51.440 --> 00:21:06.079
And then she went on to describe him as somebody who beat her, and who also once this affair started, she convinced that Jerry Cassidy that she was carrying his children.

00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:07.599
You recall that?

00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:13.200
Yes, yes, and I I can't remember if it was twins or just one kid that she made up.

00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:15.920
I thought it was twins, which was pretty fantabulous.

00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:39.200
Yes, and then she takes a picture of herself and she says, Well, I just pooched my belly out or arched her back so her belly would look like she was actually pregnant, and then sent Cassidy in Kansas City a picture, and uh also she had bruises and all this, and she was I don't know where she got those, but Mary K Cosmetics.

00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:50.480
Uh she was said she she had her she had her access to him, and uh she she she admitted that even on television here recently that she used uh her makeup to make it look like bruises.

00:21:51.119 --> 00:22:09.359
This this sort of honeypot scenario that's playing out here that if he if he somehow does her does her bidding that you know there's this honeypot waiting over the rainbow for him, uh didn't quite materialize as as he thought.

00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:34.000
The story, which I found shocking at the time, I still find it shocking, is that she had convinced uh Jerry Cassidy that her husband had done all these things to her and actually caused her to lose the child that she was make-believe pregnant with, and in order to try and enrage Cassidy because he thought that was his child or children.

00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:42.559
Yeah, there was it was getting a little too uh hokey, uh the way I saw it too, because uh, you know, he's not he's he's a he's an ex-cop.

00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:48.799
He knows what this what's going on, and I think that a lot of it turned into fantasy stuff they were both doing, and they both agreed.

00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:53.599
I mean, they were both having these fantasy conversations, and that was just way over the top.

00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:56.240
And I think that I don't know, I don't think he bought that.

00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:57.759
I don't think he bought that.

00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:04.480
His mom, he's up there because she's having a baby, and that that wasn't even a part of any what anybody knew at the time.

00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:09.119
So he was lying to his mom just to get money to fly up there, and basically they hooked up for a weekend.

00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:13.200
Well, eventually he gets convinced to come to Flint with a gun, right?

00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:15.839
Well, that's uh that's how how it's laid out.

00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:27.519
I I don't I wasn't there personally, but I had some questions because you know this other suspect that I I brought into the thing, he and I had a brother that said that he killed him and he told him he killed him.

00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:37.279
I I had that going for me, which was damaging on your end, but I think they went through that and and and successfully cross-examined those folks to take that out at the trial.

00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:44.480
But I was shocked uh because uh she was seeing this one fella and that he owed uh Bruce owed him some money, or it was vice versa.

00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:45.680
He owed Bruce money.

00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:50.880
So the argument was this guy killed Bruce uh because he didn't want to pay the debt.

00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:53.119
And so we put we put that in there too.

00:23:53.200 --> 00:24:08.559
So there was a multiple, there were multiple facets, positive for the prosecutor, positive for the defense attorney, but they all sort of they were also wrangled around the truth and what we thought the truth was, because both of these people had been lying back and forth to each other, but they also seemed very passionately connected.

00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:16.559
So it was like a scalpel, you had to take a really easy, easy cut there, because otherwise you're gonna cut yourself off as an attorney.

00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:25.680
Yeah, so you've got a plot going on in the plot, is you've got your alibi, somebody else did it, and you're deflecting.

00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:39.359
But at the same time, it seems pretty apparent to me and to the jury that Cassidy did in fact come to Flint and did shoot the husband at his place of business in Clyde.

00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:47.200
Cassidy drove his car all this way, allegedly, allegedly in a fit of rage.

00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:52.400
That was the story uh that the jury seemed to buy anyway.

00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.000
That's the basic fact, as they're alleged.

00:24:56.400 --> 00:24:58.799
You disputed some of this, obviously.

00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:09.599
It sounds like your strategy was to uh describe it in a different term, such as this was really make-believe and fantasy that got got out of control.

00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:12.640
Was there some other theory that you had?

00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:23.759
Well, what it came down when it came down to I I've talked to some of the jurors, you know, one guy from who worked at the post office called me up and said I I didn't feel comfortable, even though I said guilty and all that.

00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:30.720
And I was like, Well, listen, I I'm not gonna get into that because you know, you never know if a juror is gonna be called back or something if something comes up.

00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:36.240
The the precipice of the conviction I think came when she demanded to uh take the stand.

00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:42.400
You know, I've won a lot of cases more than I've lost, and I haven't really lost many uh on the on the button.

00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:44.240
I didn't want her to take the stand.

00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:46.079
And I've won doing both of them.

00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:56.799
And I, you know, you when you're comfortable, I just think that the cross-examination uh showed some things, and they caught her in what they claimed was a lie, but there's a document that was written.

00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:05.440
And that was really uh in my that was the real killer here in the case, uh, because it she couldn't explain it.

00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:07.200
That was a part of her image, you know.

00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:08.480
She thought she knew it all.

00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:10.480
You know, you should listen to your lawyer.

00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:14.799
You know, there's two kinds of lawyers, those who listen and those who lose witnesses why.

00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:20.319
And uh she wanted it, she wanted to get up there and testify and say I didn't do it, but that was a mistake.

00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:21.599
I didn't I didn't want her to.

00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:29.599
Because I thought we I thought we had an acquittal if we just rested the case back then, because things were going our way with the computer technology.

00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:33.039
Everything that was came at us was it we were able to push back on.

00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:34.640
But Marcy did a great job.

00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:37.839
I don't know if Peter helped out a little bit on that, but Marcy did a great job.

00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:43.119
And it was a wonderful cross-examination, uh, you know, looking back on it, of course.

00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:49.839
But uh, she got her caught up and twisted around, and there was a couple of letters she forgot about exposure, and that uh that connected it.

00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:56.079
And I think that was really the most, I think if you ask the jurors, it was her taking the stand, because a couple of them told me that after the fact.

00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:03.119
They still fought about everything, but when it came right down to it, it was her testimony, it was a long testimony.

00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.119
She was she was not used to that.

00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:09.519
She she, you know, she she could do all this with other people and make people believe her.

00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:13.680
And but you know, jurors are sitting there and they're not happy that they're there.

00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:16.480
Christmas is coming up, they're getting stuff read to them.

00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:20.880
The judge allowed a couple of uh people from the sheriff's department to actually portray them.

00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:24.160
And I had to jump up all the time and say, hey, they're accentuating it.

00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:26.240
Yeah, they're not just reading it like computers, you know.

00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:28.720
And I said, I said, judge, just let them read the stuff.

00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:48.000
We'll take a uh you know, half a day and let them read it because they don't have to do, they don't have to look at evidence, they don't have to, you know the rules, they don't have to rub it, push it down their throat, but but you know, and the gal is older and she's wearing a sheriff beat up outfit, and the guy's young and he's handsome, you know, he's a detective now there, but he was uh he was all dressed up in a nice suit, looking good.

00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:52.799
And I could I could just see the charisma oozing away from my case.

00:27:52.960 --> 00:28:01.839
And so I I when I with that going on there, I thought, well, I still can beat this thing easily, I thought, with just an argument, but she wanted to take it, she was convinced.

00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:04.720
And I, you know, when your client says I want to do it, you can't say no.

00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:11.519
When people want to take the stand and they're accused of murder, it almost never works.

00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:21.519
Like it's not very often that somebody gets on the stand and in almost any kind of criminal case, you know, takes the stand and actually tells something to the jury.

00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:33.039
You know, you get some of these people like her, obviously, she's fairly narcissistic and manipulative, who think they can convince anybody of anything.

00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:45.440
Yeah, I've had clients that uh took the stand in these types, not this type of case, but basically when they're talking about what happened maybe on the street before they shot and killed somebody, they had the juries follow along in his acquittals.

00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:51.920
However, there's so much information out there in writing and that could be associated with her and him.

00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:58.480
And even though I, you know, I could throw all these other women that he was dealing with, it wasn't to the extent that it was with this one.

00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:10.319
They were they were much more intimate with the conversations, and uh, you know, and these people are looking at it, and I could see some of those jurors with acoustic sticks on their sweater, just sitting up a little bit, uh perking up a little bit.

00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:14.960
And it was uh that that is not the same as what we did in the street.

00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:18.240
There's paperwork and paperwork and you know, on and on.

00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:21.200
And so it was just a matter of did she do it, did she not?

00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:23.200
And and there was a lot of circumstances.

00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:29.039
Jerry blamed her in a letter suicide note, and I think that that got to the that got to the jury.

00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:31.359
And at one time, I think the appellate court threw it out.

00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:34.960
I tried to get it thrown out too, um, but the judge didn't for the trial.

00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:38.720
One judge in and and down in Wayne County, but it was a federal judge.

00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:40.400
I was there when she made the decision.

00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:42.079
She was released for several years.

00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:45.599
Sheree Miller gets convicted by the jury.

00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:46.319
Yes.

00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:49.279
She gets acquitted of the biggest count.

00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:49.920
Right.

00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:51.759
No possibility of parole.

00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:54.079
So she's got at least got parole opportunity.

00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:59.519
She doesn't get a life sentence, uh, a natural life sentence.

00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:03.599
But she does get convicted basically as of a second degree murder.

00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:07.359
So that carries any term of years up to in life.

00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:15.279
Early on in the case, we assessed the case and said there's hills and there's valleys in this case.

00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:23.119
There's there's parts of this case that are going to be really on our side, probably would convict the jury or you know, convince the jury.

00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:27.839
And then as you pointed out, the holes in the case, there were many.

00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:44.160
Based on that, prosecutors generally weigh uh the value of getting a shirt conviction versus uh betting the farm on something and having somebody who's involved to the extent we thought she was in engineering a homicide.

00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:47.440
So we made here an offer of a 15-year.

00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:54.000
We communicated that to her lawyer, which would you that would be me, yes.

00:30:54.240 --> 00:31:00.480
Yes, and somehow her family and her forgot that someplace along the line.

00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:15.839
I can tell you how this was encouraged by the uh by the offer because as you have done and I have done, you do trials, you you get a feel for juries, and you can tell a lot of things, uh, how they're acting, body, nonverbal communication and whatnot.

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:21.279
And some people just flat out disgusted, shaking their heads, and that's some of that was going on there.

00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:25.680
So I uh I thought that uh she should take the deal because guess what?

00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:28.400
Had she taken that deal, she'd be out right now.

00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:29.680
Probably so.

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:40.079
And she thought that this thing about making this stuff up about nobody told her that there was a plea offer, uh, was rather fantastical.

00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:51.359
Uh she had one member of her family going around the community trying to say that our office had been unreasonable, that I specifically was unreasonable in the handling of this case.

00:31:51.519 --> 00:32:06.480
Well, when I reminded uh those who inquired, I said, Well, she had a path to walk, which was go to prison for some period of time or go to prison for all the time.

00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:16.720
I found it quite remarkable that she was going to say the lawyer never told me what the deal was.

00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:17.599
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:22.799
Well, that that uh that was after we had lost communication and and I cut off communication.

00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:26.799
She had hired another lawyer uh for a lot of money and said that that guy screwed her.

00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:32.720
And at the court appointed appellate lawyers who did a very good job in this matter because they got her out of this thing at first.

00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:35.519
I wasn't the lawyer, I just went down there to support.

00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:45.279
And and so she uh she had her back up against the wall, and so she did this uh on her own, but she blamed all the lawyers uh except her.

00:32:45.519 --> 00:33:00.000
Yeah, well, the jury convicts her, the jury convicts her on at least some of the evidence, if not all of it, that had been given by Cassidy's family to the police, because Cassidy left his computer sitting by his bed along with the note.

00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:02.960
And the computer was then examined by experts.

00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:05.920
That's how you got all this salacious material.

00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:14.319
And essentially it was a slow guilty plea on the on the chat logs if you believe they were true and you believe they were uh accurate.

00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:18.240
That all creates this conundrum for judges who say, What's email?

00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:25.119
and I you know, I'm not used to this, and you know, and then it winds through the state system, and I think pretty much it was upheld.

00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:33.759
It was upheld, yes, and then she wanders into the federal court system at that point in 2009.

00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:41.039
She gets another trial because we used the the suicide note and then releases her.

00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:41.519
Yeah.

00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:45.759
The crime wasn't like, you know, she went shoplifting at Walmart yesterday.

00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:50.640
She poses a threat uh to a free society, as far as I'm concerned.

00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:59.279
So I'd never seen anything in 40 years of practice in law where somebody is releasing somebody who's charged with uh homicide.

00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:03.119
Like I don't think the judge was the trial judge was happy either.

00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:04.640
Of course, she wasn't happy.

00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:14.559
Uh we went through a lot of stuff together, all of us, and uh and it was uh tough on everybody, tough on everybody, tough on your office, you know, it's and tough on on the defendant's end of the family.

00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:25.840
And you know, those people were good people, good family members that are, you know, just were you know held aghast because of you know what's going on there, and they have to sit there, but they're supporting their child who's an adult.

00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:27.280
Obviously they are.

00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:36.559
Uh the problem is is that it wasn't like she was acquitted, she was uh let loose on a technicality pending another trial.

00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:39.679
Yeah, I think the content, the content was a bit of a problem.

00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:43.440
I mean, it was a big problem for me because I objected to it uh wholeheartedly.

00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:50.960
Because it's not, he just the the the only thing he said about her was, you know, I went there and shot and killed him and didn't say anything else.

00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:54.639
You know, there was a lot of room for him to say, I this is where I did with the shotgun.

00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:59.119
I threw it in the Odessa River or it's somewhere, back up what was written.

00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:09.679
And also he he went into a long paragraph, you know, talking about his son and I love you and dad's, you know, messed up in life, not not over this, but other failures.

00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:14.960
You know, my position was look at he's combining a lot of failures in his life that have nothing to do with his case.

00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:16.719
The jury shouldn't hear any of that.

00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:23.280
My point was to with the judges, like just put in where where he said that he went there and she did it, and she did it for him.

00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:30.159
But putting in all that very sad stuff to his son and whatnot, uh, about hunting and this is our favorite hunting tree.

00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:33.119
And you know, that that was over the top, I thought.

00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:36.960
That was not about uh the guilt or innocence of this thing.

00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:38.239
And it and it really played.

00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:44.880
I think when the federal judge looked at it, said the same thing that I thought, which is that shouldn't be in there because that's uh it's inflammatory.

00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:47.920
He was making himself out to be a great guy when he wasn't.

00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:49.199
I mean, he really wasn't.

00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:53.840
We would say it's more prejudicial than probative, in other words, it didn't go to the opinion.

00:35:53.920 --> 00:36:03.360
We and and my team argued that it was uh circumstantial evidence that it that buttresses the rest of the evidence that we have.

00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:07.360
Uh that's really what the legal give and take was.

00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:13.280
That was successful with the with the with the federal court of appeals, so they they set that aside.

00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:14.400
So exactly.

00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:18.079
She ends up coming back for round two.

00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:44.079
By then, the federal court, higher court had ruled in another case, had essentially made her her mission impossible because the judge who initially found that this piece of evidence that was pretty damning, it was improper, only to find that that higher court had made a ruling that that said essentially that this kind of evidence was proper.

00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:47.920
So that kind of put an end to the case, is what more or less happened.

00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:53.119
She had a case, and as you know, sometimes you get stuck with several different cases.

00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:57.039
And the case that was up there with her was a horrible, horrible.

00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:10.480
I mean, this was horrible for what was uh alleged, but a mother and a daughter were raped and killed by some nut job uh over on the west side of the state, but they were in a federal, they were in a federal park, so it was a federal offense.

00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:12.000
And he took his appeal up.

00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:15.840
And unfortunately, we were right alongside of that, that fact pattern.

00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:18.800
And they were making the decision based on his situation.

00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:23.760
And then because they made that decision, then that wiped out her, really wiped her out.

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.599
It cleared the way for it to be uh to a loss at that point.

00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:32.480
So the judge, the federal judge in Detroit reverses courses.

00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:38.800
She ends up three years later, after being set free for three years awaiting trial.

00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:41.840
She ends up returning to prison.

00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:43.519
Well, that's that's that.

00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:49.119
It comes back and she uh reinstates the uh conviction and she she can appeal it again.

00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:58.000
And I believe there were some appeals, but there came a point where she was doing her own work because I don't, I don't, you know, she was she went after court-appointed lawyers, she went after hired lawyers.

00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:07.039
She takes on one who later becomes the Supreme Court Justice in Michigan, uh Bridget McCormick was her attorney.

00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:15.360
Yes, and uh of course all of them told her in their own words was not to tell the truth, not to tell her story.

00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:19.760
Well, I I was I worked, I was doing work for nothing.

00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:24.079
And I met with Bridget and she uh she did a fantastic job.

00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:26.960
She's a fantastic person and she is very smart.

00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:33.920
So anyway, she gets out and then she believes that confession is good for the soul.

00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:34.800
Is that right?

00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:36.079
Is that what happened?

00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:45.039
Well, I I think there's she was setting herself up to try and get that appeal uh to for her sentence or maybe get uh be eligible for parole.

00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:59.679
That's you have to you don't find too many people that uh are accused of a serious crime and they maintain they didn't do it and they get parole at any time, unless there's some some new evidence that comes in is breaking or DNA evidence that we didn't know about.

00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:05.360
Uh but this happened during the course of DNA was admissible and whatnot, but it wasn't really that part of this case.

00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:10.000
So it you know, she filed a petition on her own without even a lawyer.

00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:20.800
And while I think that a mistake was saying that all the lawyers all you know screwed her over, uh that was a big mistake because everybody fought pretty hard for her when they were the lawyer at the time.

00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:22.880
And that was the start of this motion.

00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:26.400
And then it went into that uh, you know, she should get out and blah, blah, blah.

00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:30.880
It's a form motion, and it just it tried to blame everybody else but herself.

00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:36.000
And that's uh that's that's the sort of the general uh scenario of what this case is about.

00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:38.079
She's blaming everybody else but herself.

00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:52.000
She realized probably, or somebody told her, that if you confess your crime, then that you have a better chance with a parole board than if you don't confess and the overwhelming evidence and convictions against you in a heinous crime like this.

00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:54.480
So I thought that was plotted out that way a bit.

00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:58.079
She was in my room, I wasn't a part of her team for years.

00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:00.320
She wanted to take shots at me and everybody else.

00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:07.840
In 2017, she confesses in a letter to Judge Fullerton and to prosecutor.

00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:12.239
She she basically acknowledges her responsibility for this crime.

00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:20.800