Nov. 22, 2022
Potholes, Roads and the Future of a Michigan Rustbelt Town
We discuss how the roads got so bad and how to fix the problem with road and infrastructure expert Dr. John Daly.
Michigan has a significant problem with its roads and bridges. The state has one of the highest numbers of structurally deficient bridges in the country, and many of its roads need repair. This problem has been exacerbated by years of neglect and insufficient funding.
Michigan has a significant problem with its roads and bridges. The state has one of the highest numbers of structurally deficient bridges in the country, and many of its roads need repair. This problem has been exacerbated by years of neglect and insufficient funding.
One of the main issues is the lack of funding to maintain and repair the roads and bridges properly. Michigan has relied heavily on gas tax revenues to fund infrastructure projects. Still, these revenues have been declining due to more fuel-efficient vehicles and the increased use of electric vehicles. Additionally, the state has not increased its gas tax since 1997, leading to a significant shortfall in funding.
The state has also struggled with inadequate funding for road maintenance, leading to a backlog of repairs that grows yearly. This has resulted in a significant portion of the state's roads being in poor condition, causing damage to vehicles and creating a safety hazard for drivers.
Furthermore, Michigan's harsh winter weather can also contribute to the deterioration of its roads and bridges. The constant freeze-thaw cycles and heavy snowfall can cause significant damage, compounded by the lack of proper maintenance.
To fix these problems, Michigan needs to invest in its infrastructure by increasing road and bridge maintenance and repair funding. This could involve increasing the gas tax or finding alternative funding sources, such as tolls or user fees. The state also needs to prioritize infrastructure projects and allocate funding more efficiently, focusing on the most pressing needs first.
In conclusion, Michigan's problems with its roads and bridges are multifaceted and require a comprehensive approach to fix. The state must address these issues in a timely manner to improve the safety and quality of life for its citizens.
Fixing aging roads and bridges in cities like Flint, Michigan, needs creative solutions for its hollowed-out city with blocks and blocks of vacant homes. While a vacant house can be torn down, the near-bankrupt municipality must maintain the aging paved roads in front of those houses. Is the answer to downsizing or shrinking the city? How difficult is that to do? Get some answers to these questions and others.
Please share your thoughts with us by email or voice message.
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Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hello, this is Arthur Busch.
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You're listening to Radio Free Flint.
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Thank you for joining us today.
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How do we fix the roads in an aging rust belt city?
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That's the subject of our podcast: potholes, roads, economic development, and the future of Flint.
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Our podcast guest today is John Daly.
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John is a wealth of experience as a former director of the Genesee County Road Commission, as well as the former director of transportation for the city of Flint.
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John now works as the manager director of the Lapeer County Road Commission.
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How do we get ready for a winter?
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How do we fix the dam roads and get rid of those big potholes that ruin our cars, that make our travel difficult, and also make it difficult for Flint and Genesee County to attract jobs.
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So where do we go from here?
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That's the subject of this podcast.
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I hope you enjoy it.
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And today's guest is John Daley.
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So it's a pleasure to have you.
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Thanks, Art.
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Yeah, you and I have worked together over the years uh in the county.
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I'm a big fan of yours.
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You've lived in Flint 20 some odd years.
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Well, I've lived in Genesee County for 20 years.
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I've lived in Flint for about 10, but I've worked in Flint for all the time.
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You've been able to sort of assess the culture of the city.
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Uh I guess look overall looking at it, if if I was to ask you and I met you at the airport in Tampa, and I said, What's this place, Flint, Michigan, all about?
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How do you describe that?
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I mean, what is this town?
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Do you have a short answer for that?
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I'd say my my elevator speech for what Flint is, is that it's a neglected combination that can that can lead to very profitable outcomes, given the right leadership.
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And the leadership issue is key.
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Is there any one word that you could describe Flint as?
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And I'm talking about the Flint area too, Wimbled, but what how would you describe the Flint area?
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More promising.
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As you look at Flint and its culture, some people describe it, describe themselves with strong identity to the place.
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I mean, it's it's remarkable.
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My wife is a Viking.
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She's a Viking.
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Well, my question to you is, are you a Flintstone?
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I'm a Flintstone by marriage and by choice.
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And if you're a Flintstone, what does that mean?
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It means, first of all, that I put am especially concerned about the needs of the community, the residents thereof.
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And then the second thing is that I recognize that there's kind of a gestalt in, if you would, in the community that makes it different.
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This community is different.
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That doesn't mean it's easy.
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It just means it's different.
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In some aspects, it's significantly harder.
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It's resilient.
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I mean, most communities today, if they have been through what we've been through, I think would have collapsed.
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There is an inner resilience in the residents of Flint that they want to see this community move forward.
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And that's going to require leadership.
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It won't be easy.
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The path needs to be realistic, and it's one that needs to be shared.
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You think that the history of Flint has much to do with that resilience?
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It does.
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It's, you know, it comes, it starts.
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There was a Flint before it was the birthplace of General Motors.
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And there'll be a Flint.
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General Motors will always have a present in Flint.
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I mean, clearly its impact will change just as the automobile industry's changed.
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If we learn one lesson that has come out of the situation we've been in, I think is don't be too dependent on any one thing.
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Tell our audience about your background.
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I've came to Genesee County in '99.
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This is the longest I've ever been any place in my life.
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And I went to high school in Corpus Christi, Texas, graduated from there, and then went to uh college for my undergraduate work at Texas AM University at College Station.
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I went into the Marine Corps after graduation, became a pilot.
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I spent 22 years in the Marine Corps.
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Uh, did two tours in uh Vietnam, retired from the Marine Corps as a lieutenant colonel.
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In 1996, went to the uh city of Three Rivers in Michigan, just south of Kalamazoo, as their city manager, and I was there for a little over three years.
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In December of 99, I came to the Road Commission as the manager director, where I stayed until oh April of 18.
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Did you ever have any road experience before you went to the Road Commission other than as a city manager?
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Not exactly as roads, runways, yes.
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One of my jobs, I've been a commanding officer of a squadron that was in charge of airfield maintenance.
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So we maintained the airfield side, and so we were responsible for maintaining roads and taxiways.
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But you had tons of management experience for sure.
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Well, that was the thing they were looking for.
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In fact, I can remember uh when I was interviewing at the road commission, in fact, I told them flat eye, I said, you know, I'm not a manager, or I'm not an engineer, I'm a manager.
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And the response I got from John Austin at the time was, Well, we're looking for a manager.
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We have several engineers around here, but we need to have a good manager to put things together.
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I was happiest about during my tenure there for 19 years, and that's kind of unusual for a manager in the public sector to be there, or almost 19 years.
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You know, I got to see not only my ideas that I had get implemented or started, but implemented.
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And it was kind of interesting I found out that not all my ideas were that great.
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Luckily, things kind of self-correct.
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Why were you even interested in Flint?
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I really didn't know that much about Flint.
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At the time, frankly, I was more interested in the in the position at the Road Commission as a road commission.
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As you know, uh road commissions are unique to Michigan.
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Before they were established in 1927, and before that county system, the roads all belonged to the county or to the township.
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And so one of the things that I found interesting was that this passed not only by uh legislation uh by the state government out of Lansing, but also by public vote in Genesee County.
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I've been in governance long enough to know that when you have something new is established and they take something from somebody and give it to someone else, both by legislation and by popular vote.
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That's a really interesting situation to look into.
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It was like most positions, they don't tell you the bad stuff that happened before you got here until after you're there.
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And so you landed in Flint.
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I'm not going to tell the people that if they're if their ropes were full of potholes and your car fell into uh that this is a guy that really you got you to yell at and asked that happens anyway.
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I mean, one of the things I did like your point about, you know, that most of my predecessors had been either active politicians or people that were retired looking for transition and to, I believe, to enhance their retirement.
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One of the things I came in the door with was that if I was going to be successful in Genesee County, that the Road Commission had to be a political.
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That took two years, uh, pretty much to do, and it was not without some pretty strong disagreements.
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And at that time I had a three-person board that I worked for.
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And of course, they're they were appointed by the county board, so they're coming at it from a political perspective.
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And I'm looking at it from a trying to manage the resources, which the roads in Michigan are underfunded now.
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They have been for the last 30 years and we're paying the price.
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But that was one of the things that I was happiest about was in the road commission when I was there, the politics stopped at my desk.
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Yeah, that we didn't fix things because of who was there or who wanted them fixed.
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We fixed them because it was the right fix at the right time and it would get the job done.
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I've always tried to remember that the money that we're using isn't my money, it's money that has really been loaned to me by the taxpayers.
00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:28.879
John, you were responsible for uh the roads, which means potholes and so on, maintenance of the roads, but you were also responsible for the overall management.
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Yes.
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I have a memory of some township that decided they didn't like it, fix the roads correctly, you know, maintain them correctly, said they didn't want to pay and so decided you can just take your road back.
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They tore the road up, and that was the end of that.
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Do you recall any of that?
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I recall that.
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That really happened just before I got to the road commission.
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One of the great myths in uh local politics with roads is that if you take that hard surface road and convert it back to a gravel road, that somehow over time it's going to save you money.
00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:07.360
The reality is that sounds good, but it's not correct.
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Why isn't it correct?
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You have to look at the reason the road was paved in the first place, and that's because it had enough of a volume of traffic on the road that a gravel road can't sustain it.
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The second thing is that the conversion of the road or from a hard surface road to a gravel road is not inexpensive.
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You're looking at probably a price, I'd guess today, of somewhere around for a mile of that would probably be close to $200,000 to make that conversion.
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And then the second thing is, and this is kind of the joker in the deck, is that a hard surface road does not require the level of maintenance, especially in the first uh 10 years, that a gravel road does.
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A gravel road is maintenance intensive.
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You have to be out there restoring the gravel, regrading every 10 uh every at least two, possibly three times a year, depending on the location in the county.
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And about the only thing it does, really, is it does reduce the level of risk in the organization.
00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:09.120
The lawsuit.
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Yep.
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Is it likely the city of Flint could decommission roads because it has an abundance of infrastructure that's underutilized?
00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:21.679
I think the way we're looking at this is you have to look at two things.
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If you look at a blood vessel, you look at you can look at the length of the blood vessel, and you can look at the dimensions of the uh blood vessel itself, and we're doing a lot of that already, where we have reduced volume of traffic on some roads, and we're taking, say, for instance, a four-lane road and reducing it to two to three lanes, two travel lanes and a turn lane.
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So we're actually we are, in fact, reducing the size of the infrastructure that we maintain.
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So Flint has 600 miles of roads, was designed for a much larger city today.
00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:55.600
That's true.
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That's a fair way to look at it.
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And that's not just the roads, that's also applies to other infrastructure like water distribution and wastewater collection.
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The difficulty in dealing with roads, as you know, is that once a property owner is granted the right to join to access a public road system from his property, we can't take that away from the property owner.
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We have to maintain that access.
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Only way to do that is to compensate that person for his access.
00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:28.559
Exactly.
00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:41.039
And if you effectively, if if you eliminate the access of private provid property to the roadway, how do how does that property ever get used if it is going to be used?
00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:47.360
Use that land that I could see would be you'd have to merge it with another piece of property that had public access.
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The problem with it is you no longer have public access to the roads.
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So that means no mail delivery, no delivery of goods.
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You don't eat you're not even entitled to come onto the road from your property.
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I talked to some experts who thought that the best way to approach this problem, and they feel that Flint may be off on the wrong track, that they're really doing it, you know, on a plical demand basis, or lack of a better term.
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And it's like how the road commission was run until you showed up, which was a guy like me calls and says, Hey, we got a pothole over here, guys.
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We need the ditch dug out, but he likes the he likes the flowers he planted out there.
00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:32.720
And there's this jostle goes on over the management of the road, and it's based on the the squeaky wheel gets the grease theory.
00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:36.480
Would you agree that happened at the road commission before you showed up?
00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:39.360
I mean, I'm sure it continues absolutely.
00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:55.840
One of the things that I've worked on for going on 20 years now to change that is I'm very a very staunch advocate of what they call infrastructure asset management, which is been is being implemented here in Michigan now as we speak.
00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:59.679
How we fix Flint is what I'm really asking the question.
00:12:59.919 --> 00:13:03.759
What would the approach the very first thing you have to do?
00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:18.559
You have to remember, and you're sure, I'm sure, will appreciate this is that in order to do virtually anything in Michigan, while your cities are quote home rule cities, you have to have enabling legislation that allows you to do it from the state.
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The way in which road commissions and cities and villages can spend road money is very tightly controlled under Act 51, public Act 51 of 1951.
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For example, if I get X amount of money that comes from the state as a result of fuel taxes and registration fees.
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They tell me how much of that money I can spend on local roads, how much of that money I can spend on major streets, how much money I can spend for overhead, how much they could they really structure that budget.
00:13:53.120 --> 00:14:05.120
I would much rather have the latitude to say, okay, hold give me this amount of money, hold me accountable for the overall condition of the road system, and let me spend that money where I need to.
00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:08.879
How would you assess the the overall flint areas?
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I would say the the infrastructure, okay, let's use like a rating system of A through F, A being excellent and F being failure.
00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:25.840
And failure means not that it's difficult to get through, failure means that it's impossible.
00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:33.519
So I would rate most of our infrastructure, you know, individually at the probably the C and D level.
00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:40.399
There's some of it that is up at the B level, especially if it's associated with interstate directly with interstate commerce.
00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:49.919
The interstates around I-75, 475, 69, US-23, they're all, I think, in pretty good condition.
00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:50.960
Are they perfect?
00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:51.360
No.
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:51.840
Okay.
00:14:51.840 --> 00:15:02.799
If you look at the amount of money that flows into Michigan's coffers for roads, it's like seven and a half cents per gallon of gasoline.
00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:10.000
People have asked me, I've had a couple of people that have come back from tours in Germany and they say, why can't we have roads like they have like the Autobahn?
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:23.840
Well, the answer is because the German fuel tax, when I last looked at it about two years ago, they were paying $1.2.15 in tax per liter, which is about $200 uh $2.30 a gallon, more or less.
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:26.639
So we pay and we pay seven cents and they pay.
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We pay seven cents.
00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:34.399
Our fuel taxes in Michigan are lower than they are for the uh states around us.
00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:51.120
And I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the only criteria you should use in raising the fuel tax, but that's certainly a point you should be looking at is okay, why are they willing to cash the political capital in order to bring that money into uh fix the roads?
00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:56.720
Again, you come back to the road problem has been postponed and delayed.
00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:07.519
It's now become it's become extremely expensive, and it's gonna be expensive not only from a financial perspective, but also from a political perspective.
00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:13.039
Because if you get it, once you start talking distribution of funds, now you're gonna have winners and losers.
00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:14.960
I'm a roads guy, okay?
00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:18.320
You want to know what it's gonna take to fix it, I can talk to you about that.
00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:21.039
You want to know how long it's gonna take, I can talk to you about that.
00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:24.080
We can talk about the type of traffic that's gonna be on there.
00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:30.799
But when you start talking about getting that type of funding, you've now reached a political issue.
00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:32.960
And that's in the hands of the politicians.
00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:43.919
And I uh while I'm not while I'm very sensitive to this, I would say that that's I can't really assess the political impact of the political cost that that's going to be.
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:46.080
That's that's gonna be the big stumbling block.
00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:48.639
I mean, that's the reason this we're in this position.
00:16:48.639 --> 00:17:04.240
In the 10 years after World War II, there was a significant expansion of infrastructure, and now we're into a position where at a national level we've got more infrastructure that we can support, which brings us back to the key question of how do you do that?
00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:08.640
And most of the questions are not technical, they're not engineering.
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:13.359
Uh, they're to some degree management, but the answers are largely political.
00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:22.319
Well, they're also financial because you said it your choice is between fixing them up or or tearing them apart and abandoning them.
00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:27.119
That's the financial fix, but the the obstacle to implementing that is political.
00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:29.359
Uh I mean Flint has a lot of assets.
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:33.440
I mean, you're a road guy, but you're also a guy that knows the community.
00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:34.720
So you've been here on time.
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:36.880
I mean, we have sale points.
00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:41.119
You know, people are always talking about our our negatives, some environmental issues.
00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:43.440
We've got a lot of unemployment, other things.
00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:48.799
But there are some who perceive Flint as a place that's dying and that it's gonna die.
00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:50.319
I don't see that.
00:17:50.319 --> 00:17:55.359
I see that there's with the right leadership, there is the opportunity for rebirth.
00:17:55.359 --> 00:18:02.559
Go back and you look at the reasons that brought people to Flint originally, and frankly, they were largely transportation.
00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:10.079
We're if you look at our our overall transportation systems that we have, we're a nexus of transportation.
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:16.000
Rail, air, and uh surface are all all across in Flint.
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:18.319
And the only thing we don't have is port.
00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:27.680
There's tremendous opportunities there to emphasize what I call transportation, but that transportation option or infrastructure.
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:43.119
So wherever this all goes, Flint still has, I mean, they do have some world-class infrastructure because they have they have supported world-class manufacturing these uh and that hasn't really dissipated.
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:44.480
I mean, it hasn't gone away.
00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.200
It's it's right now it appears in a state of decay.
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.759
It's in a state of decay, and but it it can it can be reused.
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.720
People from Flint, they're pretty optimistic people for the most part.
00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:04.319
You look at what's happened in the national media with the water crisis and a few other problems, not the least of which are crime and unemployment.
00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:10.400
In spite of all that, there's optimism for what the future of this of this region might be.
00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:12.160
Do you share that optimism?
00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:13.359
Yes, I do.
00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:14.240
Why?
00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:21.359
As I indicated earlier, we are in a very strong position just simply because of our location.
00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:23.279
What's the key issue in real estate?
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:24.960
Location, location, location.
00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:27.039
We score points on that right away.
00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:32.559
We're a nexus for a fairly significant educational capability.
00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:49.920
You have uh U of M Flint, you have Kettering, you have Mott Community College, and several other private uh colleges around the area, or trade school type technical schools around the area, all of which can provide skills and education to workers.
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:59.759
And that's that's one of the things is the economy is moving into a uh almost a fifth generation with the incorporation and fusion of digital.
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.680
Technology at a baseline level, and it's going to happen.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:16.000
We need to have a workforce that's prepared to do that and can consistently provide training to the existing workforce on new processes and new equipment coming in.
00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:19.279
And you believe Flint has the ability to deliver on that?
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:22.319
I believe that Flint has the ability to deliver on that.
00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:31.920
When you look at the capabilities, particularly of U of M Flint, Kettering, and Mott Community College, those abilities are there to do that.
00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:41.839
The linkage between what industry needs and what the academic world can produce probably should be better and needs to be worked on.
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:52.319
But I believe that it's there to provide that quality training to a workforce that will be able to work on fifth-generation uh manufacturing items.
00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:59.759
One of the things in local roads, our majors in uh in majors are pretty good, in pretty good condition.
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:04.160
I'm saying that guardedly, that's relative to the communities around us.
00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:11.359
American Society of Civil Engineers just came out with a report card, and nationwide they gave roads a D minus.
00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:14.960
But the local roads, the residential streets, are the ones that are really suffering.
00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:20.000
And the problem is under the constraints of Act 51, I can't get money through.
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:26.400
The city of Flint is going to receive $99 million, more or less, over two years.
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:29.599
There's a provision in there, none of that can be spent on roads.
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:41.839
If you look at the American Jobs Act that just came out, $4 trillion over 15 years, about $657 billion, I believe, is going to be spent on infrastructure.
00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:51.359
That includes things like roads and bridges, certainly, but it also includes marine ports, airports, and electric vehicles, railroads, and everything.
00:21:51.359 --> 00:22:01.680
And if you look at the amount of money that's actually going into roads and bridges, again over 15 years, we're now down to $157 billion nationwide.
00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:08.960
None of that money is going to go to the quote local streets, the residential streets, because they're not eligible for federal aid.
00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:14.480
So if we look at the city of Flint, what would it take to bring it to a desirable level?
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:19.039
The asset management system has a rating system called the PACER system.
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:20.880
Goes through one to five.
00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:23.359
The lower you are, the bet the worse you are.
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