April 13, 2021

Policing Flint: Jermaine Reese on Community, Training, and Accountability

Jermaine Reese, spent eighteen years as a Flint Police Officer. He shares his policing career, its highs and lows. He patrolled the Flint, Michigan neighborhood where he was raised.

What is life like in a City of Flint patrol car? What will it take for Flint's crime statistics to improve? What type of training for police will reduce abuse claims and lawsuits?

Dr. Reese explains that one of those challenges was being black and a policeman. Professor Reese also comments on the Black Lives Matter movement and its impact on policing today.

He describes the effects of Flint's economic and social problems on the job of a police officer. Reese eloquently outlines the personal qualities he acquired growing up in Flint, Michigan.

Professor Reese shares his thoughts about the need for community policing in Flint and makes some suggestions to improve the quality of policing there.

Dr. Jermaine Reese has a Phd and a Masters Degrees in Criminal Justice. He attended C.S. Mott Community College and its Criminal Justice Program. He formerly served as a Professor at Grand Rapids Community College and was the Director of the Police Training Academy in that city. He is now a Professor at Wayne County Community College-Dearborn.

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Flint hip hop artist Joe Ryan III and his 90 year old grandmother, Odessa Houston perform the song "Flint, Michigan" played in this episode.
Special thanks to Dr Avon Burns, retired Professor at C.S. Mott Community College for making this episode possible.

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Transcript

WEBVTT

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Thank you for joining us.

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This is Arthur Busch, and you're listening to Radio Free Flint.

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Our episode guest today is Jermaine Reese.

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Jermaine Reese is a PhD, has two master's degrees.

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He completed a program at Mock Community College in Criminal Justice before going on to get his graduate school education.

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He's now a professor at Grand Rapids Community College, where he runs the police academy.

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Maine Reese, in a fascinating interview, discusses the Flint Police Department, what it's like to patrol the streets of the city of Flint.

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He also talks a great deal about what training is required for police officers today and what could be improved.

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He gives a fascinating look into what it's like to be an African American in a police car and what that means for the greater community.

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He discusses quite frankly and openly the Black Lives Matter movement.

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His interview is sober, it's intelligent, and it's insightful.

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Jermaine Reese's interview made me very proud.

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Jermaine Reese at one time was a student of mine at Mock Community College.

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Jermaine Reese is the kind of police officer that every professor dreams to have turn out of his class.

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He's got ethics and smarts.

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And he also has a sense of morality and he understands the purpose of policing.

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Without any further ado, here's Jermaine Reese.

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I might add that our music today is brought to you by Joe Ryan III, also of Flint, Michigan, with his permission, a song that he calls Flint Michigan, in which he performs with his 90-year-old grandmother.

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I hope you enjoy the episode.

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Thank you for joining us.

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This is Radio Free Flint.

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Welcome, Jermaine.

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Jermaine, I did mention the one thing that I think also makes us in Flint proud.

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What high school did you go to?

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I uh a proud graduate of the Flint Northwestern High School in 1990.

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What was it like to you know get your uniform on and show up to work for the first day and then and then eventually you ended up in your neighborhood?

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You ended up where you grew up.

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You know, I I can remember the day we got sworn in, and I would tell you, the day I put that uniform on uh was the most proudest day of my life.

00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:08.719
And when you mentioned that, I immediately started smiling just even now, you know.

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But it was a little bit challenging, you know, going in and patrolling the neighborhoods that I worked in because there's this, and I'll try to keep this brief.

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Um, and this is what drove my research for my doctoral work, is that, you know, as a as an African American who goes against the grain and becomes a law enforcement officer, there's this double consciousness that you have to develop, similar to that that W.E.B.

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Du Bois wrote about in his book, The The Souls of Black Folks, and that you have to, you're black and you're a police officer.

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You can't just be a police officer.

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So historically, there haven't been very many African Americans in law enforcement.

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That's the struggle where you're trying to fight and break through those um barriers.

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But then in the community, because of the historic issues that law enforcement have had with urban core or particularly the black community, now you're looked at kind of with the side eye because you, as an African American, have joined this organization or this profession that hasn't always treated your people fairly.

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But I think it was a great day, but then it just opened up my eyes to a lot of the bigger issues at the same time.

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What is it about your experience in the Flint area?

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What was it that it gave you?

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I mean, what is Flint to you?

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What does it mean to you in that sense that it gave you a legacy of some sort or it gave you an inheritance?

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A sense of pride in being a Flintstone, the resiliency that we as Flintstones embody.

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You know, there is nothing I think when, you know, people they say if you can make it in New York, you can make it anywhere.

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I I say if you can grow up and make it in Flint, then you can go and you can be successful anywhere.

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Flint has in its history been at the forefront when you think about law enforcement and innovative.

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And so as far as a sense of legacy, it's giving me a drive that I can always be better, do better, and do more.

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And to always believe in the dreams or or the things that that I desire to do.

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Um, but at the core of all of that is that resiliency because when things get hard, flintstones, we keep pushing.

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Uh that flint rock, I mean, it doesn't break.

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I mean, it just keeps chipping and it keeps chipping away uh until the the picture or the image that we envisioned early in life uh begins to manifest.

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And then we have this beautiful picture or creation of who we are as individuals and as a collective group.

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Now tell us you became a flood police officer.

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Initially, you were an athlete.

00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:57.519
Yeah, that's correct.

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Initially, um I as you stated, I started out my um academic career at my community college.

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Um, but being a high school athlete, I still had that desire to play football at the collegiate level.

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I began to reach out to a couple coaches on the East Coast.

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Uh, one of those coaches that I had a conversation with uh wound up at Eastern Michigan University, gave me a call one day and asked me if I still wanted to play ball.

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And so I was down there from 1993 to 95.

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Um, and then after you know, a couple injuries, uh, wound up coming home a little bit earlier prior to graduation because of, you know, mentors and individuals that I knew on the Flint Police Department, they were starting to do some massive hiring around that 1996 era um with those grants from that Clinton Crime Control Bill.

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A year after coming home from Eastern Michigan, I found myself on the Flint Police Department.

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So you went from the football field to the to the field of crime and justice in Flint and public service, yeah, absolutely.

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What was the greatest transition for you in doing so?

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I think the biggest transition was to the lives of the world and how other people live.

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Because at that point, my worldview was based on my small lens or my spa, my small bubble from family and friends.

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Even going through the Flint Regional, at the time it was the Flint Regional Police Academy.

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The training that we received was great.

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There were a lot of great men and women who uh worked at those academies, but there's nothing in the curriculum that prepares you to deal with the public issues or how or the different types of lifestyles that you'll come across as a police officer.

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And so that was, I think, the biggest transition was moving from my small worldview to this bigger worldview and how as a public servant I could help people when they were in times of need.

00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:01.440
Jeremy, you uh went on to mock college where you studied in the criminal justice program.

00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:03.279
How was your experience there?

00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:04.960
Well, it was it was amazing.

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Um, I had great professors such as yourself, former or retired sheriff, uh Joe Wilson, Art Evans.

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So they had uh an amazing uh doctor, uh Avon Burns, an amazing criminal justice staff made up of men and women who had extensive careers in public service, uh, whether it would be law enforcement, prosecuting attorneys, uh sheriffs, being exposed to a criminal justice program such as that, I believe is the the reason why I'm in a position that I'm in today.

00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:41.919
You went on, of course, uh through your career.

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You you must have held various positions within the police force.

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Yes.

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I started out as everybody does in patrol, about two and a half years of service uh when the police department, I wound up transferring down to our our drug unit, which was the special operations uh unit.

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And so I worked in that unit uh as an undercover uh drug officer for a little bit over three years.

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During that time, I wound up getting married.

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And my initial uh tenure in that bureau, I was on the day shift unit.

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And so uh a month, literally a month after getting married, I got transferred to Knights, which was great because that's where you you want to be as a young person working in a plain clothes or narcotics unit.

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But the lifestyle, you're working from 6-8 p.m.

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to 2 a.m.

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Um, and then you're in court extensively wasn't conducive to a young marriage.

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And so I made the decision to transfer back to patrol.

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Uh but I've worked in uh community policing.

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Um I was a field training officer for uh quite an extensive amount of time and my service with Flint Police.

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The last five years of my tenure there, I spent as a school resource officer, which I had the the opportunity and privilege to uh to serve at Flint Northwestern High School as their resource officer.

00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:16.799
And I think of all the positions that I've had with the uh Flint Police uh department, that was the most rewarding.

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What was life as a Flint police officer in a patrol vehicle?

00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:26.720
Well, it was um I mean let's preface it by saying, you know, we're not gonna sugarcoat this.

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This is one of the most violent cities in America and has been for a number of years.

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It's got every kind of social problem that could be written up in New York City or Los Angeles or Detroit or anywhere else.

00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:48.960
It's funny, and and when you bring that up, is because whenever I tell somebody I'm from Flint, especially here in Grand Rapids, they kind of cringe because we had that statistic as one of the most dangerous cities.

00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:59.919
But what I'll say as a as a patrol officer, I mean, there were some nights where things were very chaotic, especially when we saw a tremendous reduction in our workforce.

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When I hired in in 1996, we were from the top to bottom, um, I believe we were staffed at just under 300 officers.

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And so it was fun.

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I mean, as a young officer, I mean, you were, you know, you were running across the city, you were helping, and so you had that sense of a good sense that you were making you were making a difference in the community.

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Uh, but when we started to see a reduction in staff, you know, in the early 2000s where we had massive layoffs, that made doing the job a lot more difficult.

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You've got some great men and women that wear that uniform, uh, but when you're understaffed, it just makes it impossible to do the job that you really want to go out and have the impact.

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And I'll say that even though Flint had that stigma, or well, not just the stigma, but the statistical data that supported them being the most one of the most dangerous cities uh per capita, I mean United States, growing up there, I didn't, I I knew that there was danger, but I didn't I didn't fear going to work.

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I knew going in, you know, that each day you go in, you're putting your life on the line.

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But Flintstones are amazing, amazing people.

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And through those relationships that that I was able to form as an officer, I knew that as long as I treated people right, that if I found myself in a in a sticky situation, that I would have allies there.

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And that people in the community proved themselves time and time again uh to support us in our work.

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What were some of the uh routinely crazy things that you saw that never did make sense to you?

00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:44.480
That that's that's kind of difficult because we as as interesting as as I said, the resiliency of of the Flintstones.

00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:50.320
I mean, you would see, I mean, there were some people that wound up, and I call them actors.

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I will just refer to them as actors.

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Life had hit them in a different way.

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Some of those characters, I mean, they wound up, you you kind of look forward to seeing them on a day-to-day basis, but they either had some, they were disconnected from society.

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Whether that person had a substance abuse problem or an alcohol problem, you would see them on a day-and-day basis for whatever reason.

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Um, and you got to know that individual as an individual, as a person, moving aside whatever their issue was, whether it was a drug dependency or alcohol dependency.

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It was almost as if we were living out the screenplay.

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And this individual, every day or whenever you would come in contact with that person, you got used to their antics.

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So we had this one individual who, whenever he saw you, he would run up to the car and make sure that you had your seatbelt on.

00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:51.440
But he would, he would always kind of question you for money and he would he would rap.

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And he would rap and then he would dance.

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And then, you know, if it was sunny out or if it was a war, you know, we're moving into the warmer weather now.

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But he would get down and do these push-ups, and it was just the craziest thing you would see.

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But this person, when you think back the context, his first his first thing that he would ever say was, make sure you got on your seat, though, make sure that you're being safe.

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And this was a person that when I look back early in my career, we arrested this individual for domestic assault and battery.

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And I remember it was on DuPont and Gray Street, they were living in a duplex.

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So my partner and I, we wound up arresting him, and he was only at the time he was about 20 years old.

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To see this person now, most people think when you arrest an individual, that there's this animosity or there's this conflict that you know, every time you see each other is going to be this tension.

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And that and that wasn't the case.

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And so even though statistically Flint had a bad rep um reputation, I I loved my um my my years of service there.

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You uh dealt with a lot of problems, and mostly you were given a task and you were to to go and and address it.

00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:06.240
How frustrating was that?

00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:19.279
The days would they would be it's very frustrating because as police officers, and I would even imagine attorneys or or prosecutors, you're wired to solve and fix problems.

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And so when we're dispatched as officers, we want to fix the problem, um, whatever that may be.

00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:36.000
And to be called out, you know, day in and day out to where and you knew exactly what it was going to be, um, the situation once you got there.

00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:37.759
And so it was frustrating.

00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:57.200
And I think more, even more frustrating is because you could see the potential um in individuals and when you're trying to either provide them resources or help them to see a better way, um, either be it making decisions, whatever the case may be, to continuously be called out for the same things was frustrating.

00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:17.839
No, and I was gonna say, even to that frustration when you're trying to eliminate problems such as um drug problems, where people are selling drugs in a neighborhood or may not be in that neighborhood, and you're arresting those individuals and to see how the judicial system is is set up to where those people become a revolving door.

00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:19.839
That was very frustrating as well.

00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:26.960
Hey there, we're taking a break.

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This is Arthur Bush from Radio Free Flint.

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I'd like to bring your attention to the fact that we now have a website.

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It's at radiofreeflint.media.

00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:44.160
That's www.radiofreeflint.media.

00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:56.640
There you can find our videos, our our podcasting, uh blog posts, and a lot of information about our podcasts uh and our guests.

00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:58.240
So take time to stop by.

00:17:58.240 --> 00:17:58.720
Thanks.

00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:00.720
Hope you enjoy this segment.

00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:11.839
Has necessarily involved a changing society.

00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:20.559
Mental health issues that arise from that economic stress become more predominant in the population that you're policing.

00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:24.799
What effect does that have on the men and women in the police force?

00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:26.880
I mean, it has a huge impact.

00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:34.240
You brought up a very good point when you're thinking about social disorganization, you know, honor me or the rapid change.

00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:38.880
You know, you know, Flint was known for the auto industry.

00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:53.039
So at one point in Flint's history, which is a very rich history, people could walk out of high school, walk right down the street, didn't have to leave their neighborhood, and they could get a job that provided a means and a very good life for their families.

00:18:53.039 --> 00:19:05.039
You remove that, the opportunity for people to be gainfully employed, have the ability and the opportunity to provide a way of living for their family and have a sense of pride and dignity.

00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:08.720
It creates a different set of issues for law enforcement.

00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:26.160
Now, when you introduce drugs and crime, and now you're called to find a solution to those issues, I think we focus more at the initial surface issue and not the underlying issue that created or led to that problem.

00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:43.920
And this is where I think the system as a whole has been flawed because when we wage war on drugs or crime, not to say that we shouldn't be addressing those issues, but I think we have a responsibility to look at what created that issue.

00:19:43.920 --> 00:20:03.200
And so when you have the lack of economic opportunity, um, not the police officers should be dealing with that, but we can create partnerships in the community to where now, if we know of employers that are looking for workers, then we can maybe steer or guide an individual that's looking for employment to a place of employment.

00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:05.359
And so it's it's very frustrating.

00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:10.880
You're called to fix a problem that you know arresting an individual is not going to solve.

00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:26.400
I think those and those speak to the largest systemic issues that the community has been crying about for the past you know years and decades is that the root of the problems in the urban core is the removal or the lack of economic opportunities.

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You know, I remember uh growing up as a child, there was a school within walking distance of every community.

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When I come back home to Flint now, those schools that were staple, uh staples in the community where you could go on a Friday afternoon and either go skating or go into the community rec center.

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Um, now those things don't exist.

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And so those where you had those resources, the removal of them, just create additional problems that um become not necessarily, well, they become a burden on society, but on the police department because now they're called out to answer and solve problems that they're not really equipped to do.

00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:23.359
You know, when I was a kid growing up in Flint, we had the Florida B brothers, Kojak, and all these other characters in the Flint Police Department's history, but they they knew us, they knew our families, they knew our neighborhood, they knew our school, they knew our teachers, they knew our principals.

00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:34.000
They were really connected to us, and they they rooted for our success, whether it is in school or you know, that game we were playing in the play lot that day.

00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:40.480
Somehow we've gotten away from that model of policing, uh, and we went to a more militaristic policy.

00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:43.519
And that policy has not solved problems in Flint.

00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:44.960
What's your thoughts about that?

00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:52.480
The militarization of the police, and to what extent is that maybe just a character that isn't true, or is that a problem?

00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:57.519
There are a couple of different things at play there when you talk about the militarization of policing.

00:21:57.519 --> 00:21:59.759
This isn't um a new phenomenon.

00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:10.319
When you think about policing in its organizational style and how it's the hierarchy is set up, it's always been a paramilitary organization.

00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:12.960
I think that's what people failed to realize.

00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:44.160
And I think when the term militarization began to be popular as a character descriptor for police, policing was back when you think in the late 90s with the LA bank robbery, that scene that caused this mass chaos where the LAPD responded to the bank robber who had donned military grade vests and equipment, had the AR-15 in multiple uh magazines.

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And it was an onslaught of onslaught of law enforcement responding.

00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:58.559
And this is a problem because you have people who study law enforcement criminals, even, and find flaws in how the system and how we our approaches.

00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:17.039
When people began to talk about the militarization of the police, it was the police responding or realizing that they had to change some of their techniques and some of the equipment that they used in order to adequately provide services when in need.

00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:21.359
Oh, so you're saying we started creating all these SWAT teams.

00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:25.200
A lot of the people that get on these SWAT teams do have military experience.

00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:26.079
Uh correct.

00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:29.119
And I'm not against a SWAT team by any means.

00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:32.079
The whole police department doesn't need to be a SWAT team.

00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:33.440
No, and that's true.

00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:34.960
And I think that's true.

00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:42.000
I think what happened, and you made a very good point, is that it's a cultural, there's a cultural issue as well.

00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:44.799
Think about law enforcement as a whole.

00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:48.079
We definitely need more relationship building.

00:23:48.079 --> 00:24:03.920
Um, but again, that goes back to the the statement that I made uh a few moments ago, where when you have a reduction in staff and you're only able to respond, you know, or to show up and provide rapid response.

00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:11.680
So you're coming in because of a problem, you're trying to fix that problem, and then you're leaving out of that area and going on to the next problem.

00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:13.519
We have 300 officers.

00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:19.359
We could allocate resources to community development, to building relationships.

00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:29.359
And that's what made our community policing uh bureau that we had back in the 90s so imperative to the functions of Flint Policing.

00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:32.720
It was one, it was a nationally renowned or recognized program.

00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:37.599
And I believe it was highly effective in the communities where we had community police officers.

00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:42.480
All right, let's explain that because uh listeners might not know what that is that aren't in the police work.

00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:50.400
So, community policing, what we had officers who were responsible for smaller communities within the larger community.

00:24:50.400 --> 00:25:00.079
A part of their responsibility would be to build relationships, to learn pretty and at the core of it, decentralize the authority.

00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:08.480
And in those relationships, they would empower the community members to solve a lot of the issues that they were having without the police.

00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:09.599
Give me an example.

00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:14.640
Say a lot of the a lot of the issues or cause that we would go out on would be civil, civil issues.

00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:33.519
Uh, you and I are neighbors, and you're cutting grass and you're cutting all your grass, chipping, your long chippings are coming in my grass, and you know it's becoming a nuisance because now it's killing my rose bushes, or your dog is using a bathroom in my yard, there's no fence, or there's you you got trash building up in your backyard.

00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:51.200
And so those aren't police issues or criminal issues, but yet Flint Police and other agencies across this nation are full service police departments, where if a person or a citizen calls 911 with any type of problem, then they're dispatching a police officer.

00:25:51.200 --> 00:26:01.519
And so, with the community policing officers or cops officers, as we called them back uh back then, they knew or had intimate relationships with the community members.

00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:08.880
Those community members were empowered by those community officers to handle situations.

00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:30.480
The officer, they in turn became more so a mediator as opposed to a law enforcement official because now they're helping the community members come up with an equitable solution to a problem that had the police come in and made the decision, neither party would probably have been receptive to the to the problem.

00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:32.640
All right, let's switch gears for just a second.

00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:38.880
You uh obviously have studied quite extensively policing strategies in your criminal justice.

00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:46.640
If you were in charge of a police agency like Flint, if you were in charge, if you were King, I guess a better way to say it.

00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:57.359
What what are some of the solutions for Flint in your view based on more modern looks at uh criminal justice theory and policing?

00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:59.519
I know you could write a book about this.

00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:05.119
Tell me what are some of the areas that we could maybe look at that would improve the situation.

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:15.359
I think one of the things we we would definitely need to do as um do another reassessment of uh resource allocation.

00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:29.039
Um when I say that, you had, I believe the last study that was done made mention or actually documented that you only needed one and a half officers for every 1,000 residents.

00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:30.880
That's problematic.

00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:51.599
If I were, as you stated, if I were King, I would make sure that instead of having one bureau as we operated, the cops or community policing bureau back in the 90s, my entire agency would be community oriented from top to bottom.

00:27:51.599 --> 00:27:59.440
And that's the issue with a lot of police departments is you don't, you know, you have upper level command that don't want to relinquish that power.

00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:07.920
Anyone who studied the criminal justice system know that we rely on law-abiding citizens to follow the rules.

00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:19.039
And we get that for the most part, because if we didn't, we would have large, large-scale panic, large-scale anarchy across our nation.

00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:20.640
And that's not the truth.

00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:42.880
We would have to um, again, if I were king, I would have a community-based policing where from the chief down, um, we were all geared towards building relationships, fostering those relationships, and making sure that we were partnering with the community to help us address the issues.

00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:48.000
And not just community members, but with businesses to bring in opportunity.

00:28:48.000 --> 00:29:00.400
I think when we have the right partnership with businesses, we can begin to clean up and address issues to where now corporations and businesses will come into a city that people are afraid to come into.

00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:04.960
Because again, that's at one of the core issues when you don't have the economic opportunities.

00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:12.960
You're hey there, we're taking a break.

00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:16.000
This is Arthur Bush from Radio Free Flint.

00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:20.960
I'd like to bring your attention to the fact that we now have a website.

00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:25.519
It's at radiofreeflint.media.

00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:30.240
That's www.radiofreeflint.media.

00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:42.640
There you can find our videos, our our podcasting, uh blog posts, and a lot of information about our podcasts uh and our guests.

00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:44.319
So take time to stop by.

00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:44.720
Thanks.

00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:46.720
Hope you enjoy this segment.

00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:53.440
You're in the education business and you're in the training business.

00:29:53.440 --> 00:30:04.079
I mean, anybody that wants to be a police officer on the streets of Grand Rapids or surrounding areas in Kent County, they have to go through your school or one like it.

00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:10.720
Uh, is there room for increasing the educational attainment levels at the front door?

00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:20.880
It also troubles me that we place such small emphasis on psychological uh screening of those who are going to be given a badge and a gun.

00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:22.319
Can you comment on that at all?

00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:26.880
Every recruit or officer they do complete a psychological screen.

00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:30.000
To your point, yes, there is a lot more that we could be doing.

00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:41.359
Implemented here is the additional over the state mandated cultural diversity training, de-escalation training, implicit bias training.

00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:53.599
So those things are components of the training curriculum sent by the Michigan governing body that at least come through my academy, they're going to get an additional training and implicit bias training.

00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:57.039
They're going to get de-escalation training techniques and skills.

00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:05.200
So that way, once they go to their place of employment, day one, they can begin to make decisions, uh, better decisions.

00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:20.160
I will say this that uh one of the requirements now, everyone who comes through the Grand Rapids Community College Police Academy will either have two years of academic studies completed or they have a four-year degree.

00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:42.960
So whereas the state mandate or the state requirement is that you only have a high school diploma, what a lot of people don't realize is that if you are a pre-service candidate, which the majority of the individuals who come through my program are pre-service individuals, the requirement is that you have at least an associate's degree before you can be licensed in the state of Michigan.

00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:49.200
And so I think that's one of the things that a lot of people don't realize is that there is that requirement.

00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:54.079
If you, but I think that should be the same whether you're pre-service or in service.

00:31:54.079 --> 00:32:07.519
And the reason I say that is because if you're 18 years old and you get hired by a police department, then the the rule is that the requirement, basic requirement is just you're 18 and have a high school diploma if you get hired by an agency.

00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:12.720
But if I sponsor myself, then I have to have at least an associate's degree.

00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:23.759
So I think that's one of the areas where we can look at maybe improving or making it making that a requirement across the board is that everyone have at least a two-year degree.

00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:30.000
Well, Black Lives Matter obviously has made some impact on the criminal justice system in the last year.

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:31.920
What's your reaction to all of this?

00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:33.920
What do you think its impact is?

00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:42.559
You know, most police officers that I see, at least on social media, seem quite upset about their agenda.

00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:50.319
I I guess I'm asking you to comment on the notion that anybody who says anything is amiss should become the enemy.

00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:52.480
Is that really what's happened in policing?

00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:55.279
Because if so, we have a bigger problem than I thought we had.

00:32:55.519 --> 00:32:58.720
Well, I definitely can't speak for all law enforcement.

00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:05.839
I will say that there are some people who take issue when you hear uh the term black lives matters.

00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:09.599
And there are some who who support that that movement.

00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:42.559
I will say that me personally, being an African-American male, I don't have an issue uh with it because when they say black lives matters, it is not to negate the importance of every other um ethnicity, but it's to address an issue that's been systemic for since the inception of this profession, particularly law enforcement, dating back to the use of it as from militias to slave patrols.

00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:59.039
And so there's this history similar to the history of our country, to where you have some individuals who just do not want to recognize or identify or or even admit that there's some problems within our profession.

00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:06.000
And I don't think that admitting that there are some problems means that we've got to get rid of the whole profession as a whole.

00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:09.760
It just means that we have some areas in which we can grow.

00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:23.760
And so when you say Black Lives Matters, I think that it just opens up the door or the wounds to an area in our history as a country and as a profession that we haven't really wanted to deal with.

00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:27.519
Jermaine Reese, thank you for joining me on Radio Free Flight.

00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:28.480
You've been a great guest.