July 26, 2020

From Flint Sandlots to the Michigan's Big House and the NFL: The Paul Staroba Story

From Flint Sandlots to the Big House and the NFL: The Paul Staroba Story”
Radio Free Flint with Arthur Busch

In this episode of Radio Free Flint, host Arthur Busch sits down with Flint native and Greater Flint Sports Hall of Famer Paul Staroba to trace his journey from sandlot football on the east side of Flint to the University of Michigan and the National Football League.

Staroba reflects on:

🏈 Growing up in Flint’s working-class neighborhoods
Backyard games, empty lots, and neighborhood rivalries that shaped his toughness, alongside three older brothers who made sure he learned to compete.
🏫 Parochial school days at St. Leo’s and St. Matthew’s
How small Catholic schools and the old Flint Area Parochial League produced big-time talent and lifelong friendships.
👨‍🏫 Coach Jack Pratt’s belief and quiet prophecy
The legendary St. Matt’s coach who took Staroba to the Big House as a kid, told him he belonged there, and kept telling him he could play big-time football when nobody recruited Class D schools.
💙💛 Life as a Wolverine under Bump Elliott and Bo Schembechler
What it was like to play split end and punt for Michigan, lead the Big Ten in receptions, catch touchdowns in the Big House, and survive Bo’s brutal winter conditioning and “those who stay will be champions” culture.
🏆 Big Ten success & Flint Sports Hall of Fame
How good teammates, great coaching, and Flint’s competitive sports environment led to all-league honors and a place in the Greater Flint Area Sports Hall of Fame.
🏟 The NFL years: Browns, Redskins, Packers
Adjusting to pro speed, punting in Cleveland, nearly knocking off the undefeated Miami Dolphins, and punting in a snowstorm at Soldier Field for the Green Bay Packers.
✊ The 1975 NFL players’ strike & being arrested on a picket line
Staroba tells the story of staying on strike, picketing with Chicago Bears players, getting hauled off in a paddy wagon in front of his pregnant wife, and why, looking back, he doesn’t regret standing with the players.
🍺 Life after football: 35 years in the beer business and family
How leaving the NFL early opened the door to a long career back home, raising a family, staying rooted in Flint, and keeping deep friendships with teammates.
🌆 What made Flint special
Staroba reflects on GM plants, working-class parents, city parks, Atwood Stadium, Ballenger Park, and why Flint’s blue-collar culture prepared him for everything that followed.

This is a rich conversation about coaching, character, work ethic, union solidarity, and Flint’s sports legacy—told through the life of one of the city’s most accomplished athletes.

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Transcript

WEBVTT

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Hey there, this is Arthur Bush speaking, host of Radio Free Flint.

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I'd like to bring some new information to your attention.

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We now have a website at www.radiofreeflint.media.

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Please go to our website.

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You can play every one of these episodes, look at some of the things we've done in the past, you can learn more about our guests.

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We have information and links to websites, articles, and so on.

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We'd greatly appreciate it.

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Take care.

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Here's our episode.

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Thanks for listening.

00:01:34.609 --> 00:01:43.329
This is Arthur Bush.

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This is Radio Free Flint, and we have a wonderful show for you planned today.

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We have uh uh Paul Saroba, who is uh well known in the Flint area and around the country.

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Uh Paul uh is a name is a Flint native, uh went to school in Flint, uh grew up in Flint neighborhoods, uh, and was went on to have a spectacular athletic career both at all three levels, really.

00:02:15.889 --> 00:02:23.569
College, uh, high school, college, and then uh played in the National Football League.

00:02:23.569 --> 00:02:24.770
Welcome, Paul.

00:02:24.770 --> 00:02:26.449
Thank you for joining me.

00:02:26.449 --> 00:02:28.289
Well, thanks for having me, Eric.

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Well, I have a lot of questions of you.

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And the first is uh I want to know who your favorite coach was of all the coaches you had.

00:02:40.129 --> 00:02:46.849
You had three great coaches, and let me see if I can remember who they are from my research.

00:02:46.849 --> 00:03:02.289
Number one was Jack Pratt, number two was Bump Elliott, someplace in there, and number three was Bo Schambeckler, and then I missed the pro coaches, you'll have to fill me in on those.

00:03:02.289 --> 00:03:04.610
Well, nothing, nothing missed there.

00:03:04.849 --> 00:03:10.129
But um Jack Pratt, uh, I could tell you stories about that man.

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Um he was an incredible human being to start with, but he's the one that got me believing that coming from a small Class D school that I could actually play football on the big time level.

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And because nobody ever recruited Class D schools.

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And uh Jack used to take us all down to uh Michigan Stadium for the Michigan Spring Game.

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And he would drag me, and this was very informal back in those days.

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He would take me and he'd drag me down by the tunnel.

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This I swear to God, this is the honest God of truth.

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He'd stand there with me as the players are walking out onto the field, and he'd he'd hit me with his elbow and goes, Hey, look at that guy.

00:03:48.610 --> 00:03:51.969
He says, uh, you're as big as him, and he says, You can run faster than him.

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That's the kind of things he he did to me.

00:03:54.289 --> 00:03:56.610
Uh I'll tell you another story, too.

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We went down to see a Baltimore Colts and uh Detroit Lions and exhibition game in old Tiger Stadium, and we're all sitting there, and he during the game, he comes over to me and he leans over and whispers in my air, he goes, Someday we're gonna come down here and watch you play.

00:04:11.650 --> 00:04:17.170
And those are those honest to God stories that he did, and there's some other stuff too.

00:04:17.170 --> 00:04:33.170
Just a but he was getting me to believe that I could do it on that level because it seems so you know, when we're little kids, we look up to these guys, they seem like gods and they seem like you'll never get there, but he made them seem very real to me, very you know, very touchable and stuff.

00:04:33.329 --> 00:04:35.730
So he was he was amazing.

00:04:35.730 --> 00:04:38.610
Now, where did you come encounter Jack at?

00:04:39.009 --> 00:04:40.610
Well, actually, when I went to St.

00:04:40.610 --> 00:04:53.089
Leo's in eighth grade, uh his brother-in-law, Jack Etchu, was our eighth grade coach, and um so we had a connection with Pratt, and then our St.

00:04:53.089 --> 00:04:56.449
Leo's class, we were actually in the St.

00:04:56.449 --> 00:04:58.290
Mary's school district.

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But St.

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Mary's couldn't take our whole St.

00:05:00.529 --> 00:05:07.490
Leo's class, they didn't have enough room for us, and they wanted to keep us all together, and I thought was you know that was a great idea.

00:05:07.490 --> 00:05:07.810
St.

00:05:07.810 --> 00:05:13.810
Matt's was the only one that could take all of us, only like uh 20 of us that in the uh St.

00:05:13.810 --> 00:05:17.490
Leo's class, eighth grade, and so we all went down to St.

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Matt's, and uh of course uh Jack Etchu, I was actually I was a quarterback back in eighth grade, and so you know, we got in Jack would come and watch or Jack Pratt would come and watch his brother-in-law Jack Etchew.

00:05:31.250 --> 00:05:32.850
Uh the games on Saturday.

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We play at Whaley Field, or we play over to uh oh over Potter, and those areas.

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So, but they were all they were eighth grade games, they weren't big time games, but you know, that's my that was my actually the first time I ever played organized football.

00:05:47.250 --> 00:05:53.810
But I had what would the difference was I had three older brothers, so I played a lot of football, but not organized.

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You played in the you played in the empty lots wherever it could be had.

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Wherever we bought our school, we had a big side lot uh next to our house, and we would uh play there.

00:06:07.089 --> 00:06:09.329
We had all boys in our neighborhood too.

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So every day was the morning till night was sports every single day of the week.

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Uh much probably like your neighborhood too.

00:06:16.050 --> 00:06:16.529
Exactly.

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That's exactly what we did.

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We even played the Thanksgiving, the annual Thanksgiving Day game.

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With snow or without snow.

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In the empty lot there at uh Penn Galley and Milton Drive.

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Then we went up to Old Phelps' house, which was up on Penn Galley, and that was a big field, so we like to play there best, but just depend uh well.

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We used to go out uh uh to uh George Daly on uh Bridgefield and uh Genesee and climb on the weekends, climb the fence into the field, and there'd be 40 or 50 guys playing football on the uh field, which was the old Kersley Ridge Kersley High School varsity field until they built the other school, built the field to go along with it.

00:07:01.089 --> 00:07:01.970
Oh yeah.

00:07:02.209 --> 00:07:03.810
And then 40 or 50 guys.

00:07:03.810 --> 00:07:06.930
We play at uh McKinley School too.

00:07:06.930 --> 00:07:18.050
We'd bring our neighborhood over and play with the kids off of Ingleside with the Aceros and Higgerson boys and people that were strong and fast and big.

00:07:18.050 --> 00:07:18.769
Yep.

00:07:18.769 --> 00:07:22.689
So you learned that's where I learned first to run for my life.

00:07:23.490 --> 00:07:26.529
Because I wasn't I wasn't so fast like you were.

00:07:26.529 --> 00:07:33.730
Yeah, well, I had three older brothers, so you know that uh I learned a lot of competitiveness.

00:07:33.730 --> 00:07:38.610
If I wanted to play with them, I had to play up to their level, otherwise I wasn't in any games.

00:07:38.610 --> 00:07:39.329
Yeah.

00:07:39.329 --> 00:07:49.490
My my older brothers, this is funny how when we were playing in the neighborhood, if somebody in the neighborhood roughed me up, then they had to deal with my brothers.

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But if my brothers roughed me up, it was no big deal.

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You know, I was properly still.

00:07:57.089 --> 00:08:06.850
Well, somehow or another, from the fields of George Daly Field, you ended up in the Greater Flint Hall of Fame, Sports Hall of Fame.

00:08:06.850 --> 00:08:08.769
Tell me about that a little bit.

00:08:09.410 --> 00:08:26.930
Well, you know, again, going back to the coaching, uh Jack Pratt was a major influence, you know, and then I I went to Michigan because I always looked at, and I didn't go on scholarship, I was basically like a walkout, but he had me believing I could play bigger big football.

00:08:26.930 --> 00:08:29.250
And so I just said, well, you know, I don't have a scholar.

00:08:29.250 --> 00:08:32.289
I paid my first year through and got a scholarship my second year.

00:08:32.289 --> 00:08:36.450
And you know, but my career at St.

00:08:36.450 --> 00:08:41.490
Matthew's, I mean, we had great teams, we had great teammates, you know, we had great coaching.

00:08:41.490 --> 00:08:49.649
And you know, we um like the old Flynn Area Parochial Conference was a great, great conference.

00:08:49.649 --> 00:08:56.929
You know, all small schools, everybody knew one another because we we would play sports, basketball, different things in the summer.

00:08:56.929 --> 00:08:59.809
Each school would have dances, so you got to know the other guys.

00:08:59.809 --> 00:09:02.129
So we had a lot of uh competitive guys here.

00:09:02.129 --> 00:09:07.649
So you know that always raises your level and ability when you're playing against good competition.

00:09:07.649 --> 00:09:11.169
And then you know, going to Michigan and playing with Bo.

00:09:11.169 --> 00:09:16.690
Um, I mean, I just happened to fit in perfectly.

00:09:16.690 --> 00:09:29.809
We had we had the right offense, we had the right guys, and so you know, you you do what you do and you do it to the best of your ability, and you know, and they're getting into the Flint Sports Hall of Fame was uh a result of all that kind of stuff.

00:09:29.809 --> 00:09:34.129
It wasn't you know, if I didn't have all those things around me, it would be a different story.

00:09:34.129 --> 00:09:36.690
But I had a lot of great, great people.

00:09:38.769 --> 00:09:40.049
Yeah, no kidding.

00:09:40.049 --> 00:09:46.610
There's a lot of great people in the Flint Sports Hall of Fame, and uh you should be very proud of that accomplishment.

00:09:46.610 --> 00:09:57.409
Now, uh one of the things that I had a question about with you is what was it like what was it like to catch a touchdown in the big house?

00:09:58.210 --> 00:10:12.289
Uh I'll never forget my first one was against Illinois, and you know, I mean you always dream of it, and then you finally, you know, it happens, and some it it kind of surprised me that I actually scored a touchdown.

00:10:12.289 --> 00:10:15.889
And back in those days, you could take a throw the ball in the stands or whatever you want to do.

00:10:15.889 --> 00:10:25.169
And I remember I caught it and I was I was so excited, I turned around, I was throwing the ball into the stands, and when I threw it, my foot slipped and I fell flat on my face.

00:10:25.169 --> 00:10:29.009
So you know, I didn't make a very good uh production out of that issue.

00:10:29.009 --> 00:10:34.929
But uh you know, to be in front of your hometown fans is because when you're there, you get you know a lot of cheering.

00:10:34.929 --> 00:10:39.889
But when you're in a uh foreign territory, no nobody, you know, it's pretty quiet when you score.

00:10:39.889 --> 00:10:43.409
But your team your teammates are there to you know spur you on.

00:10:45.169 --> 00:10:45.809
Wow.

00:10:45.809 --> 00:10:53.090
Now you you uh you played uh ball and attended uh parochial schools in the Flynn area.

00:10:53.090 --> 00:10:56.529
And who were some of your teammates when you were at St.

00:10:56.529 --> 00:10:57.490
Matt's?

00:10:57.809 --> 00:11:07.169
Well, uh Mike Abbott, whose son is Jim Abbott, the world-renowned, you know, unbelievable human being to start with.

00:11:07.169 --> 00:11:11.730
Jim is as kind and good a person as you can ever run across.

00:11:11.730 --> 00:11:16.049
And you know, a little story on that is you know, here we are high school seniors.

00:11:16.049 --> 00:11:25.970
And uh Mike uh he as soon as we're out of school, Kathy, his wife, gives birth.

00:11:25.970 --> 00:11:31.409
And we get the message that their son was born with one hand.

00:11:31.409 --> 00:11:32.370
We were devastated.

00:11:32.370 --> 00:11:37.090
We you know, we're high school kids, we didn't understand birth defects and things like that.

00:11:37.090 --> 00:11:43.169
And as his you know, great parents, Mike and Kathy Abbott, I mean, they raised him the right way, obviously.

00:11:43.169 --> 00:11:47.970
And he is he he's just he's a world hero, let's face it.

00:11:47.970 --> 00:12:04.370
I mean, to do what he's done and the things he he does so much stuff on the side nobody ever realizes when he visits kids uh that he gets letters from parents, and I've seen some of the letters that they bring tears to your eyes, hey, because they're devastated their son maybe was born without a right arm or something like that.

00:12:04.370 --> 00:12:05.809
And Jim will write them.

00:12:05.809 --> 00:12:09.169
He's actually stopped in to see people when he's had an opportunity.

00:12:09.169 --> 00:12:11.889
And I mean that's the kind of person he is.

00:12:11.889 --> 00:12:19.090
And the biggest I tell you, the when he played in the Olympics, and we turned, I'll never forget it.

00:12:19.090 --> 00:12:24.370
I was up, uh I was up north and I was at a friend's cottage, and we turned the Olympics on for the opening ceremonies.

00:12:24.370 --> 00:12:25.730
And who's carrying the flag?

00:12:25.730 --> 00:12:26.929
Jim Abbott.

00:12:26.929 --> 00:12:29.889
It brought tears to my eyes, still does.

00:12:29.889 --> 00:12:39.970
And I think what a you can't get a bigger honor than to carry your country's flag, the opening ceremonies of the Olympics.

00:12:39.970 --> 00:12:49.330
I mean, that's uh everybody in the world is watching, but every your the people that are your teammates on the Olympic team put you in that position.

00:12:49.330 --> 00:12:51.009
That's what kind of person he is.

00:12:51.250 --> 00:12:52.129
Yeah, I'd agree.

00:12:52.129 --> 00:12:54.129
His parents are wonderful people.

00:12:54.129 --> 00:12:57.649
I I've practiced law against uh Kathy.

00:12:57.649 --> 00:12:59.330
Kathy over the years.

00:12:59.490 --> 00:13:10.129
Uh and well, we had John Sperla on our team, who you know he still holds record for most points scored in uh high school basketball tournament, the games for the tournament.

00:13:10.129 --> 00:13:12.049
That was a year after uh he was a year younger.

00:13:12.049 --> 00:13:14.690
That's what John's all seat football, basketball.

00:13:14.690 --> 00:13:22.690
Uh John became John became a lawyer uh in Notre Dame, very successful, very, very successful lawyer in Grand Rapids.

00:13:22.690 --> 00:13:25.570
John would work you to death.

00:13:25.570 --> 00:13:28.929
There was nobody who was tougher than John Sperla.

00:13:28.929 --> 00:13:30.769
I mean, he was the toughest guy going.

00:13:30.769 --> 00:13:33.570
He wasn't the biggest guy going, but he was the toughest.

00:13:33.570 --> 00:13:37.250
And you know, he was a leader just the way he conducted himself.

00:13:37.250 --> 00:13:42.450
And you know, it was easy to get us to follow a lot, but whatever effort he gave, we had to give too.

00:13:42.450 --> 00:13:44.370
That's what John tolerated.

00:13:44.370 --> 00:13:49.970
So you remember in those days, you know, the other schools like Flint Central.

00:13:49.970 --> 00:14:01.090
I mean, you look at the guys they had, Tim Bogracus, you know, Paul Stokes, uh uh Dwight Penix, Phil Bacon, you know, they they had they had the uh one of the greatest basketball teams you'll ever see.

00:14:01.090 --> 00:14:05.330
You know, and all the Flint schools had had really great teams in those days.

00:14:05.570 --> 00:14:06.769
Yeah, I'd agree with that.

00:14:06.769 --> 00:14:15.649
Now, Paul, uh did when you were a kid, did you participate in uh punt, pass, and kick uh at the stadium?

00:14:16.129 --> 00:14:20.769
No, they uh that was after I was actually a little older that that started.

00:14:21.009 --> 00:14:21.490
I see.

00:14:21.649 --> 00:14:23.809
Did you ever play at Atwood Stadium?

00:14:23.809 --> 00:14:25.330
Uh played baseball there.

00:14:25.330 --> 00:14:27.730
Well, yeah, actually we played football there too because St.

00:14:27.730 --> 00:14:29.970
Mike's uh and St.

00:14:29.970 --> 00:14:32.690
Matt's played their opening game at Atwood Stadium.

00:14:32.690 --> 00:14:35.009
My very first game as a freshman at St.

00:14:35.009 --> 00:14:36.769
Matthew's, uh we played St.

00:14:36.769 --> 00:14:38.929
Mike's and just got drilled by them.

00:14:38.929 --> 00:14:41.889
And Coach Pratt was not happy with the effort we made.

00:14:41.889 --> 00:14:44.690
So practice was not any fun for the next few days.

00:14:44.929 --> 00:14:48.610
You know, there's a lot of people don't remember baseball at Atwood Stadium.

00:14:48.610 --> 00:14:49.889
Oh yeah.

00:14:49.889 --> 00:14:54.929
And uh did you you say you played baseball for uh your St.

00:14:54.929 --> 00:14:55.970
Matt's team?

00:14:56.049 --> 00:15:08.529
Or no, this was uh, you know, the old leagues that they used to have class, you know, C D E and that uh uh yeah, okay, the city playoffs, and our whole goal was to get to Atwood Stadium to play.

00:15:08.529 --> 00:15:09.169
Right.

00:15:09.169 --> 00:15:13.649
It's the first time we ever played in anything that had you know real true stands around.

00:15:14.450 --> 00:15:19.409
Then they made Lincoln Park, and of course, that's they they had uh the games there.

00:15:19.409 --> 00:15:25.809
Uh so what when you were a kid, did you learn how to dropkick the ball?

00:15:25.809 --> 00:15:28.850
Uh yeah, we used to dropkick it for fun.

00:15:29.169 --> 00:15:38.049
But the the the the way I really learned how to uh kick is I was also I also kicked off, and you know, I could uh kick extra points and field goals too.

00:15:38.049 --> 00:15:45.490
But uh in our side yard, the telephone lines ran down the log, you know, at the perpendicular to the with the length of the field.

00:15:45.490 --> 00:15:49.250
And so we'd go out there, we'd kick it over the telephone wires all the time.

00:15:49.250 --> 00:15:57.490
And then my dad and I used to, he'd get on one side of the house and I'd get on the other side of the house, and we'd punt the ball back and forth.

00:15:57.490 --> 00:15:58.049
Uh-oh.

00:15:58.049 --> 00:16:03.490
And it was great for learning how to catch it because you had to, you know, you didn't see the ball until it got above the house.

00:16:03.490 --> 00:16:08.049
And so I learned to catch like that, but also I learned how to punt to get it good and high.

00:16:08.049 --> 00:16:16.210
And that lasted until I can't remember if my dad or myself hunted one, hit one of the guide wires on the TV antenna, and it went down.

00:16:16.210 --> 00:16:18.370
My mom came out and said, You guys are done.

00:16:18.370 --> 00:16:21.009
You know, you go over the other lot if you want to kick the ball.

00:16:21.009 --> 00:16:24.929
So that's that's how I that's how I learned to punt.

00:16:25.250 --> 00:16:49.570
Oh, whatever you learned did you well, because again, my research, being a trained investigator that I am, tells me that you led the Big Ten uh in punting uh with a 41.5 yard average, and that uh you received a fair amount of accolades for your punting.

00:16:49.570 --> 00:16:50.370
Is that right?

00:16:50.529 --> 00:16:53.889
Yeah, yeah, it was uh I led the Big Ten in punting.

00:16:53.889 --> 00:17:05.650
Uh nationally, the the guys who always led the nation in punting were from like Utah or Wyoming, where they had a lot thinner air, and that's that's the honesty odd truth.

00:17:05.650 --> 00:17:09.089
They had a little bit thinner air and the ball would travel a little farther.

00:17:09.089 --> 00:17:12.450
Yeah, but it was uh it was a great asset to have.

00:17:12.450 --> 00:17:15.089
You know, it made you more valuable to the team.

00:17:15.089 --> 00:17:21.650
The only trouble was back in those days, you know, you were you know, you didn't stand on the sidelines and warm up.

00:17:21.650 --> 00:17:28.369
I mean, I was playing, so I would, you know, we'd have four, five, six, eight, ten play series, and you'd be running downfield.

00:17:28.369 --> 00:17:34.369
So, you know, if you didn't make a first down, it's come back, and then you're punting the next play, and you're gassed.

00:17:34.369 --> 00:17:44.609
And so it was uh, you know, I'd come to the huddle and I'd be gasping for air, and all I would tell the guys was just hit somebody, just make sure you hit them so I can get the punt off.

00:17:45.170 --> 00:17:48.130
So did they ever miss a few times?

00:17:48.130 --> 00:17:50.210
Uh nope, never had a punt block.

00:17:50.210 --> 00:17:51.410
Nope.

00:17:51.410 --> 00:17:55.170
Did did the coach ever call your number to pass the ball down the field?

00:17:55.170 --> 00:17:57.890
Uh no, he never asked me to do that, thank God.

00:17:57.890 --> 00:18:01.890
He was kind of a conservative fellow when it comes to stuff like that, wasn't he?

00:18:01.890 --> 00:18:03.410
Yep, yep.

00:18:03.569 --> 00:18:13.089
We had um well, I wasn't punting at the time, but yeah, I mean he things in Bows Craw for a long time.

00:18:13.089 --> 00:18:19.410
When uh we were juniors, we lost to Missouri, like uh 40 to 14 or something like that.

00:18:19.410 --> 00:18:24.369
And the turning point in the game was uh we had a punt returned against us.

00:18:24.369 --> 00:18:26.769
Oh, Bo, he never let up on that.

00:18:26.769 --> 00:18:31.809
I mean, he was the rest of the season, every time during the week we're working on punt protection.

00:18:31.809 --> 00:18:37.329
I mean, he would he would throw 40 guys on the other side and say, go block the punt, I'll buy somebody a steak dinner.

00:18:39.009 --> 00:18:52.849
But it uh so you eventually ended up under the tutelage of Bo Schembeckler, the infamous uh or famous legendary coach at the University of Michigan.

00:18:52.849 --> 00:18:56.369
And uh so what happened in your career there?

00:18:56.369 --> 00:19:00.130
You you in those days you couldn't play the first year.

00:19:00.690 --> 00:19:02.450
Right, my first friend I didn't play.

00:19:02.450 --> 00:19:07.329
And uh the softboard year, actually softboy year was Bump Elliott.

00:19:07.329 --> 00:19:12.529
And Bump Elliott was a great man, as uh you know, he true Michigan man.

00:19:12.529 --> 00:19:16.849
I mean, he and his brother uh were all Americans Americans at Michigan.

00:19:16.849 --> 00:19:20.690
Uh Bump was a legend, and he was our coach.

00:19:20.690 --> 00:19:26.450
This is uh Bump never swore, he never said a cuss word.

00:19:26.450 --> 00:19:32.289
And of course, when Bo got there, every other word was MFSOB.

00:19:32.289 --> 00:19:34.849
And so, and we're like in shock.

00:19:34.849 --> 00:19:36.769
You know, who is this guy can come in here?

00:19:36.769 --> 00:19:38.930
And he's kicking our butts every day.

00:19:38.930 --> 00:19:48.210
I mean, the um we had winter conditioning was the first experience we really had with Bo, and it was absolute torture.

00:19:48.210 --> 00:19:52.769
He would make sure that on Saturday mornings, eight o'clock, we'd have conditioning.

00:19:52.769 --> 00:20:00.130
You know why that was because we knew we were out Friday night, and so we'd show up there and everybody's just struggling.

00:20:00.130 --> 00:20:07.650
And uh then when we had spring practice, uh that's where the old saying, those who stay will be champions.

00:20:07.650 --> 00:20:31.009
And we figured out why that was is because we were having guys walk off the field during practice because they couldn't take it anymore, because we were hitting every single day, and it was it was just it was it really toughened you up, and it uh Bo was separating who was gonna put out and who wasn't gonna put out, and he found out real fast because we had a lot of guys quit.

00:20:31.009 --> 00:20:34.289
Most of them were academic guys anyway.

00:20:34.289 --> 00:20:42.609
They were you know really smart guys, great teammates, but they were smart guys saying, I don't need this, I don't need to be put through this torture.

00:20:42.609 --> 00:20:48.930
Bo even said years later, he said, You guys, he says, I was never harder on a team than I was on you guys.

00:20:48.930 --> 00:20:50.210
He said, Well, thanks.

00:20:50.210 --> 00:20:52.049
That's great, that's great to hear now.

00:20:52.849 --> 00:20:57.170
Now, you so you you eventually you worked your way into the lineup.

00:20:57.809 --> 00:20:58.450
Yep.

00:20:59.170 --> 00:21:05.730
And uh how to go after that, after that first that first year, that would have been what year, sophomore or junior year?

00:21:05.730 --> 00:21:06.849
That'd been my junior year.

00:21:07.009 --> 00:21:15.809
Junior year, I started out great, and then uh I ran into some problems uh because I uh I would have had a lot more receptions.

00:21:15.809 --> 00:21:22.130
I I I injured my thumb, and so that kind of like distracted me.

00:21:22.130 --> 00:21:24.849
And I dropped a couple balls and bow pulled me.

00:21:24.849 --> 00:21:28.289
And then I got I'll say it, I had a bad attitude about the whole thing.

00:21:28.289 --> 00:21:30.690
I was not real happy about that fact.

00:21:30.690 --> 00:21:36.529
But I uh after that season was over, I uh made up my mind.

00:21:36.529 --> 00:21:46.049
In fact, a coach Jim Young was one of our he was our defensive coordinator, but he came to me and he gave me a book called Psycho Cybernetics.

00:21:46.049 --> 00:21:48.529
And he just he said, I want you to read this all.

00:21:48.529 --> 00:21:50.450
He said, learn what's in this book.

00:21:50.450 --> 00:21:52.130
He said it'll help you tremendously.

00:21:52.130 --> 00:21:58.849
And basically all it boils down to is visualizing everything you want to do, like in any profession, you can visualize it as a lawyer.

00:21:58.849 --> 00:22:04.210
You know, you look and say, Well, this is what I results I want, and I need to do this, this, and this.

00:22:04.210 --> 00:22:14.210
So I took that to heart, and you learn one thing is that every single time you catch the ball, you gotta look it into your hands because otherwise you'll develop bad habits.

00:22:14.210 --> 00:22:20.529
And so, and in your mind, you know, sometimes you just close your eyes and pretend like you're running routes and the ball's coming.

00:22:20.529 --> 00:22:29.970
Jim Young was a big instrumental part of that, giving me that book, because I did that over and over and over all summer long, and it really helped my concentration.

00:22:29.970 --> 00:22:34.210
And so I I had a I was very happy with my senior season.

00:22:34.529 --> 00:22:49.890
Now, you led the Big Ten in receptions with 35 pass uh catches for 519 yards, and uh were you were you uh Big Ten, all Big Ten for that or for Buncher?

00:22:49.890 --> 00:22:52.210
A double as receiver.

00:22:52.210 --> 00:22:53.970
A receiver, yeah.

00:22:53.970 --> 00:22:55.809
And you you weren't a slot.

00:22:55.809 --> 00:23:00.529
Did they have slot receivers in those days or were they all just very little?

00:23:00.690 --> 00:23:04.450
I mean, actually they call it the I was all Big Ten split end.

00:23:04.450 --> 00:23:05.730
Oh yeah.

00:23:05.730 --> 00:23:08.130
So that was a little different, but yeah, it's slot.

00:23:08.130 --> 00:23:09.490
You didn't do much slot.

00:23:09.490 --> 00:23:16.369
We didn't have much uh I would love to have played in the offenses today because they're so unbelievably tricky.

00:23:16.369 --> 00:23:31.089
And back then, I mean, you know, 35 receptions, I mean, that's a lot of receptions in in some ways, but it's what these guys catch nowadays, I would have loved to have, you know, guys catching 60, 70 passes a season, that'd have been fun.

00:23:32.210 --> 00:23:32.769
All right.

00:23:32.769 --> 00:23:46.450
So with Bo, uh your team was your team successful that year, or how did it uh Yeah, that's the year that we beat Ohio State when Woody had his greatest team his first year.

00:23:46.690 --> 00:23:57.009
You know, when the year before when we were sophomores and we were down to Columbus, um I think he was 50 to 14 when Woody went for two points at the end of the game.

00:23:57.009 --> 00:24:02.369
And it didn't settle well with guys because he was just trying to you know embarrass us.

00:24:03.170 --> 00:24:15.250
So uh when you um when you were playing at the uh University of Michigan, what was it like to be a football a football player and a student?

00:24:16.450 --> 00:24:20.210
You know, back in those days, you know, that was during the Vietnam War.

00:24:20.210 --> 00:24:23.730
So, you know, we weren't such big hot shots on the campus.

00:24:23.730 --> 00:24:28.690
You know, like nowadays, social media has really blown these guys up to be bigger than life.

00:24:28.690 --> 00:24:32.690
You know, and and you know, we only had one or two games a season on TV.

00:24:32.690 --> 00:24:40.210
And the only time that, you know, a lot of the students, I mean, they they loved football, they loved going and everything, but you know, there wasn't a lot of publicity on us.

00:24:40.210 --> 00:24:55.730
Uh, you know, the Flint Journal was a great, great newspaper in its day because they covered they covered the local sports, high schools, they covered the city sports of the you know recreational leagues, and they covered the Big Ten and the Lions, and they did a great job in it.

00:24:55.730 --> 00:25:00.930
Doug Mintline and Lynn Hoyes and those guys Flint Journal.

00:25:00.930 --> 00:25:01.650
Yep.

00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:03.730
Great, great writers.

00:25:04.130 --> 00:25:23.809
So uh in your in your career at Michigan, which uh was extraordinarily successful, you know, you made uh all league, um, you had had some big uh had some big numbers, and that drew the attention of the the No Fools League, right?

00:25:23.809 --> 00:25:25.329
Yeah, right.

00:25:25.329 --> 00:25:26.609
The NFL.

00:25:26.609 --> 00:25:33.650
Did you ever think when you were growing up in the city of Flint that you'd end up in the NFL draft?

00:25:33.650 --> 00:25:34.769
Uh no.

00:25:34.769 --> 00:25:37.170
That was the farthest thing from my mind.

00:25:37.170 --> 00:25:39.410
I had no idea what it was even about.

00:25:39.410 --> 00:25:45.089
So, like my friend Reggie Williams, you were drafted in the third round.

00:25:45.089 --> 00:25:45.970
Yep.

00:25:45.970 --> 00:25:51.089
And you were you were picked by, I think, the Cleveland Browns, right?

00:25:51.089 --> 00:25:51.970
Right.

00:25:51.970 --> 00:25:52.849
Right.

00:25:52.849 --> 00:25:56.450
And and how'd that go the first year?

00:25:56.849 --> 00:26:05.890
Um I ended up on the taxi squad the first year, but you know, it's uh like they say the difference between high school and college is the speed.

00:26:05.890 --> 00:26:09.170
The difference between college and pros is the speed.

00:26:09.170 --> 00:26:13.490
So you start learning how to deal with that speed that's for you and against you.

00:26:13.490 --> 00:26:17.410
I was I was pretty fast, but I mean everybody's fast.

00:26:17.410 --> 00:26:24.289
So you had to learn how to, you know, you had to be more of a precise player, you had to run your routes correctly, and uh do you know everything you could do.

00:26:24.289 --> 00:26:30.450
Actually, I when I went to Cleveland, I actually tried to lose some weight so I could be a little bit quicker.

00:26:30.450 --> 00:26:39.410
And you know, because speed is you know, so that's they say speed kills, and that's when you see these guys in the league that you know run four, three, or four, four forties.

00:26:39.410 --> 00:26:42.210
I mean, that's that's world class.

00:26:42.450 --> 00:26:43.650
Yeah, no kidding.

00:26:43.650 --> 00:26:49.650
And who and and eventually you made it onto the field, but not at Cleveland.

00:26:49.970 --> 00:26:51.650
Uh no, I played at Cleveland.

00:26:51.650 --> 00:27:02.210
Um, Mike Phipps, and then uh Brian Saipe was the backup, and Brian and I became great friends, still are to this day.

00:27:02.210 --> 00:27:09.970
And uh we had guys like Fair Hooker, Gary Collins, Leroy Kelly, uh, I mean, Bo Scott.

00:27:09.970 --> 00:27:12.049
I mean, there were some great players on that team.

00:27:12.049 --> 00:27:14.289
I was pretty well in awe of these guys.

00:27:14.289 --> 00:27:17.890
Gene Hickerson, uh, you know, uh Ben Davis.

00:27:17.890 --> 00:27:24.769
We had we actually we had a chance to beat the Miami Dolphins in a playoff game.

00:27:24.769 --> 00:27:27.250
This is my second year, when they went undefeated.

00:27:27.250 --> 00:27:29.410
We went down there to play them in the playoffs.

00:27:29.410 --> 00:27:42.450
And right towards the end of the game, I can't remember what the situation was, but uh we uh we had an off awesome chance of actually beating them, which would have ended their uh you know unbeaten streak.

00:27:42.450 --> 00:27:45.970
But we didn't, and they you know they went on to legendary status.

00:27:46.369 --> 00:27:51.250
And then eventually you played for the Redskins and uh and the Green Bay Packers.

00:27:51.490 --> 00:27:52.049
Yep.

00:27:52.049 --> 00:28:40.130
I didn't play uh I was just with the Redskins uh just during the preseason, and I was picked up at the end of the season by Green Bay because their punter Ron Whidby had gotten hurt and they needed a punter, so I went up to Green Bay the last few games of the season, and that was quite an experience because I mean it was already winter, a full-fledged winner up there uh when I got there, and I actually uh uh punted the last game of the season was against Chicago Bears, and it was funny because uh I was getting the stamp from center, we're in soldier field, and it's snowing out, and the ball bounces back to me, and I I pick it up and I look, and there's like eight black jerseys like bearing down on me.

00:28:40.130 --> 00:28:47.410
So I went up like I was gonna punt it, and they all jumped, and I ran around the guys for a first down.

00:28:47.410 --> 00:28:54.210
But what was funny is a friend of mine who was injured was up in the press box, and I mean Charlie Hall.

00:28:54.210 --> 00:29:03.089
He was up there and he said the coach, when he said, when I took off running, the coach is screaming at me like, you stupid assolby, what are you doing?

00:29:03.089 --> 00:29:07.009
When I got the first down, the next word out of his mouth was great run.

00:29:07.009 --> 00:29:13.410
Who is the head coach at that time?

00:29:13.569 --> 00:29:14.849
Uh Dan Devine.

00:29:14.849 --> 00:29:15.809
Oh, yeah.

00:29:15.809 --> 00:29:18.529
I could go into stories about him, but I won't.

00:29:18.529 --> 00:29:24.049
Well, that that year had sort of an unceremonious ending, didn't it?

00:29:24.049 --> 00:29:28.690
All right, you're back.

00:29:28.690 --> 00:29:30.450
Okay, okay.

00:29:30.450 --> 00:29:32.769
Uh yeah, we're having some connection issues.

00:29:32.769 --> 00:29:33.569
Can you hear me?

00:29:33.569 --> 00:29:34.769
Yes, I can hear you.

00:29:34.769 --> 00:29:35.410
Okay.

00:29:35.410 --> 00:29:39.170
Uh we got about five minutes left, but I was gonna I was just making a joke.

00:29:39.170 --> 00:29:45.730
I don't know if it'll go over very big, but your career ended in in Green Bay, I believe.

00:29:45.730 --> 00:29:46.690
Yes.

00:29:46.690 --> 00:29:50.609
And not everybody's career ends quite like that.

00:29:50.609 --> 00:29:55.490
You and Colin Kaepernick might be in the same in the same category, right?

00:29:55.890 --> 00:29:56.769
Well, kind of.

00:29:56.769 --> 00:29:59.089
That was during the 75 player strike.

00:29:59.329 --> 00:30:04.690
Yeah, and then your true Flintstone came out at on the national stage.

00:30:05.009 --> 00:30:07.089
Yeah, I stayed, I stayed on strike.

00:30:07.089 --> 00:30:11.730
You know, I uh I stayed on strike, didn't help it didn't help my career.

00:30:11.730 --> 00:30:18.210
You know, and actually, you will when I look back, and I'm glad I did, because you know, I got back to Flint, my father in law hired me.

00:30:18.210 --> 00:30:27.890
I had 35 great years in the beer business, raised five kids and everything, but it helped get me on my way to you know where where I ended up today.

00:30:28.289 --> 00:30:36.450
Now, of all the people I know, and you Were the you and Duncan Beagle were the first two athletes I wanted to interview.

00:30:36.450 --> 00:30:39.329
Uh and then skip parbin.

00:30:39.329 --> 00:30:52.930
But I would have never guessed in a million years after my research that you had actually been arrested for picketing in Green Bay.

00:30:53.490 --> 00:30:55.170
Well let me tell you the whole story on that.

00:30:55.170 --> 00:30:58.849
That was during the strike, and we were picketing with some Chicago Bears.

00:30:58.849 --> 00:31:00.529
It was an exhibition game.

00:31:00.529 --> 00:31:05.730
And the the exhibition game, the funds went to the policeman's pension fund.

00:31:05.730 --> 00:31:07.890
So we're out there, we're picketing.

00:31:07.890 --> 00:31:11.970
The team has an injunction put against us for picketing there.

00:31:11.970 --> 00:31:15.569
And one of the guys was a lawyer on, I can't remember who it was.

00:31:15.569 --> 00:31:18.289
One of the guys was a lawyer that was played on the team.

00:31:18.289 --> 00:31:19.890
He had actually had his law degree.

00:31:19.890 --> 00:31:21.809
And he said, We're not going anywhere.

00:31:21.809 --> 00:31:26.369
So they bring a paddy wagon to make us leave.

00:31:26.369 --> 00:31:31.490
My wife is pregnant for our first daughter, Jennifer.

00:31:31.490 --> 00:31:38.289
And she had just taken the ferry across from Ludington over to Manitowac, and it's 90 degrees out.

00:31:38.289 --> 00:31:44.130
She's like seven months pregnant, and she gets to the stadium just as we're being loaded in.

00:31:44.130 --> 00:31:46.210
She knows nothing about what's going on.

00:31:46.210 --> 00:31:48.609
We're getting put into the patioway.

00:31:48.609 --> 00:31:53.089
And I see her out there, and there's a little window, and I laugh.

00:31:53.089 --> 00:31:56.609
I see her, she's got tears coming down her eyes.

00:31:56.609 --> 00:31:59.970
I'm waving out the little window to her.

00:31:59.970 --> 00:32:01.329
She has no idea what's going on.

00:32:01.329 --> 00:32:02.930
She doesn't know anybody there.

00:32:02.930 --> 00:32:06.289
She has to find out, you know, they take us to the police station.

00:32:06.289 --> 00:32:09.009
You know, that was that was all it was all kind of a farce.

00:32:09.009 --> 00:32:10.289
They just wanted us out of there.

00:32:10.289 --> 00:32:13.730
You know, they didn't have an injunction put against us and they bail us out.

00:32:13.730 --> 00:32:16.130
So they got us away from the city.

00:32:16.369 --> 00:32:18.690
If I was a prosecutor, I'd have let you go.

00:32:19.890 --> 00:32:22.690
Well, we went into the well, we went into the police station.

00:32:22.690 --> 00:32:43.490
It was kind of funny because uh Gail Gillingham, who was a big monstrous guy, great, great player, black for Paul Horning, and you know, uh uh Jim Taylor, he uh he's looking at these cops, and because this game, the money went towards their pension fund.

00:32:43.490 --> 00:32:48.369
He's he's yelling at these cops, and everybody knows it's just you know sarcastic.

00:32:48.369 --> 00:32:55.089
And he says, you know, you guys, he says, you know, he says, I tore my knee up playing in this game last year, and you guys have the nerve to arrest me.

00:32:55.089 --> 00:33:00.529
And he picks up his forearm and kind of flexes his forearm muscles, which were like my leg.

00:33:00.529 --> 00:33:05.089
And he's see this, he's pointing to the cops, says, You see this, you're gonna have to face it.

00:33:05.089 --> 00:33:07.410
Makes the atomic bomb look like a church social.

00:33:07.410 --> 00:33:10.210
And we're all and the cops are laughing.

00:33:10.210 --> 00:33:11.569
Yeah, just what happened.

00:33:11.569 --> 00:33:13.650
That was the episode of being arrested.

00:33:13.890 --> 00:33:14.450
Oh boy.

00:33:14.450 --> 00:33:16.529
Well, so Paul, uh, we're out of time.

00:33:16.529 --> 00:33:17.730
I'd like to get some more time.

00:33:17.730 --> 00:33:24.289
Maybe you can come back and speak to us later, but I I'd like to ask you, and I appreciate you uh taking the time.

00:33:24.289 --> 00:33:31.329
What was it about Flint that that uh lent to you the tools to become successful?

00:33:31.329 --> 00:33:32.769
We got less than a minute now.

00:33:33.009 --> 00:33:43.250
Yeah, well, I think you know, growing up in Flint, I mean I grew up over in the East Side, right by uh AC, you know, AC, AC, Delco, Del, you know, Delphi, all the changes that went through.

00:33:43.250 --> 00:33:46.769
And all my family worked in uh General Motors at one time or another.

00:33:46.769 --> 00:33:55.250
My mother retired from there, my brothers retired from there, my father was a sheet mill worker, and I think uh growing up in Flint, I mean, we didn't have a lot.

00:33:55.250 --> 00:34:03.170
I mean, we had we had enough to get by on, but I mean you learn the your friends that I have in Flint, I still have.

00:34:03.170 --> 00:34:08.130
You know, I think it's the closest of people of Flint because everybody came from the same background.

00:34:08.130 --> 00:34:10.289